Measurements of Lowered Boxsters
 

Hello,

I am investigating a few changes to my suspension. As some of you know I am running a set of coil overs and throughout the past 6 months I have changed spring rates, toe links, camber plates and anything else I could think of to get the set up "just right".
Currently the alignment is right and the tire wear is back to Porsche normality.

The ride is great on smooth roads and bearable in the city. The interstate is killing me. If I hit a dip or a rise as in overpasses the car feels as if the rear is coming off the ground. I know for a fact that the rear tires did come off the ground in one occasion because my friend was behind me.

I am tired of this problem.

I have decided to go back to an OEM type suspension and lowering springs. I ran Elbachs for a few years and never had a issue with them.

But I am in love with the slammed down look of my car. I am not keeping my current set up but I am switching to something else, i just dont know what yet.

What I am looking for is a few measurements of OEM 986s and lowered 986s.
I dont remember what the OEM height is or the lowered height on lowering springs. My memory recall is my car is 24.5 inches from the ground now, through the center of the rim to the fender in the front and the rear I dont recall.

If a few of you can measure your car through the center of the rim to the fender front and back It would help me decided if I want to try another coil over or just go back to lowering springs.

If I decide to go to lowering springs we get to have another thread on shock options ( I think Bilsten is it) and another thread on sway bars!!! Are you guys looking forward to this again??

Thanks for all your help in advance.

OH by the way the PSS10s look real tempting.....

My car measures at 24 7/8" in the front and rear. This is measuring from the ground up through the center of of the rims to the bottom of the fender. For reference, I'm running eibach pro springs with the factory Bilstien shocks with Bridgestone S02's at 225/40/18 and 265/35/18 in the rears. This set up is about 3 years old so the suspension is well settled in.

Out of curiosity what kind of coilovers are you running?

[http://i25.tinypic.com/2natwlk.jpg

if you want a car that handles great & is primarily driven on the street, you absolutely cannot beat (for price or performance or comfort) the M030 setup (the car in my sig is M030 ride height). if you absolutely have to have the car lower, go for eibach springs & M030 everything else. if you have to go REALLY low, go for H&R springs & M030 everything else.

i've driven almost every conceivable combination of sways, springs & shocks available for this car & have come to the realization that (suprise) porsche knows what they're doing. unless you have some reason to need a car that's hyper stiff & squeezes out that last bit of performance for a street car, i am adamant that the M030 is most properly tuned option you can get for our cars.

the car on the left is M030; the car on the right is H&R.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...01/Compare.jpg

M30 everything else? would be M030 sway bars and struts. Right?
Are there different M030 Struts or just the standard Bilstens?


Thanks
Gary

here's my preferred setup for a street boxster:

Front Sway: M030 'S'
Rear Sway: M030 'Base'
Springs: M030
Struts: Bilstein Sport or M030

the reason for the base rear sway is that it's thicker than the S and takes out some understeer. a primary reason i love the M030 springs is that while Eibach and H&R lower the car evenly, the M030 lower the car more up front. again, this takes out understeer.

the bilstein sport (and HD; they're damped the same) are supposedly a bit more stiff than the M030, but i can't tell the difference. either is great.

the eibach sways are almost identical to the M030 listed above, but twice the price. the H&R sways are WAY too stiff for the street and will be underdamped by M030 or Bilstein struts; your car will porpoise.

Essentially, if you buy the full M030 kit and have them swap the front bar to the S M030, you will have a full package that works very, very well together.

"here's my preferred setup for a street boxster:

Front Sway: M030 'S'
Rear Sway: M030 'Base'
Springs: M030
Struts: Bilstein Sport or M030"

Insite, curious as to whether you have adjusted camber/toe, or have left those settings stock as well? And if you have adjusted, are you using after-market adjustable camber plates and/or adjustable links in back? I agree with your setup, and certainly don't want my car any lower, but am wondering how to get my tire wear more even (and contact patch larger) when i track my car...

thanks,

chris

04' Boxster S 550 "Special Edition"
99' Carrera 4
'83 Audi Urquattro

i run -1.0 deg camber up front on the street and -1.6 deg on the track. i set front toe to zero at -1.0 deg camber. when i change the camber for the track, i leave the toe alone. this pushes the front toe out a teeny bit, which i like on the track.

in back, i don't yet have any toe correction arms installed. i run zero toe at -2.4 deg camber on the street and on slower tracks. i set slight toe in for faster tracks. this is too much camber for a street tire, but i can't de-camber further without trashing my toe settings. this is of course cured w/ toe arms.

I have h&r race springs on my acura integra. its very bumpy ride, but the stance is perfect. I'm thinking I'm not going to put the h&r's on my porsche because of the bumpiness.

I would be interested in the stock porsche equipment if I can find the for about the same prices as aftermarket stuff.

the porsche stuff is actually cheaper than the aftermarket stuff. not sure what the price is now, but in '07 you could get the M030 kit (sways, springs, and struts) for $1,000 from sunset imports. for comparison purposes, aftermarket struts will run you $800, H&R springs are $400, and H&R sways are another $450.

insite I'm shocked,you saying you'd prefer the M030 stuff compared to the RoW 030 equipment? I really liked my RoW 030 suspension but at the same time I wish it lowered the car's stance a little more. Handling was great with the RoW 030 kit though.

i probably should have been more clear; both are M030, but the RoW M030 has the euro ride height and is indeed the one i prefer. i talk about this stuff a lot and just figure the RoW part of the M030 package is a given (why order U.S. spec?). the U.S. M030 kit doesn't lower the car at all. when i say M030, i mean RoW M030. thanks for catching that, blink.

My car is 24.5 so there is less than a half inch between the two.
Does anyone have H & R's can you measure for me??

As of today I am running KSport coilovers.

This seems like a great idea. All OEM equipment but I will do the H&Rs or Elibachs. I had Elibachs at one time and may go back to them but the possibly lower H&R are tempting.

Thanks for the help, I should have thought of this on my own but I didn't I guess thats what you guys are here for.

gary -

sounds like you are moving away from the coilovers to the M030. i'm doing the opposite since i see the track a lot. want to work out some kind of trade?

gary -

just realized your first post mentioned you really liked the low look of your car. if that's the case, you want the H&R. i don't have the measurements handy, but they lower the car quite a bit. if boxs2000's car is 24-7/8 with the eibach pro, you'd be at your current ride height with the H&R.

the H&R are a little stiffer than the M030, but not much. i would go with the bilstein sport struts since they're supposedly valved a little stiffer than the M030; this will balance out the stiffer springs. don't even consider sway bars other than M030 for what you're looking to do.

do you know what your exact spring rates are?

i am running C/Os, granted I have motons, and the ride is VERY plush.

spring rates with the same shocks can drastically change the ride characteristics. as can the wrong tire and wrong air pressure.

i have the re01-r. which i like a lot.

the RE01-R is a VERY comfortable tire.

My current spring rates are 300 front and 500 rear.

I know these are very stiff, my original thought is to just go with softer springs. Most spring rates for the 986 are 200-300 range. The reason I am considering just going to a Bilsten-H&R setup is I will only have to do the work once.

DO you guys think softening the springs will help with the "porpoising" I am getting?

Another interesting point, which should have been obvious to me (preferably, before I purchased them), is that the after-market camber plates are relatively thick... the ones I bought, schnell, which seem to be as good or the same as all the other ones, are 1/2" thick, so by using them i will be able to get more camber (duh) than stock allows, but i'm also going to be raising the car higher, changing the lower front/higher rear setup of the factory M030 and probably affecting the handling characteristics in a negative way (e.g. more understeer)... so, now, the only way i will now be able to alleviate the understeer and or get the ride height back to the way i love it, is to get adjustable coilovers!!! Thus, like insite, I may be looking to trade/sell my MO30 package as well...

Oh, the webs we weave!

And just to make myself feel even worse for buying adjustable camber plates ($400) that might not be useful without adjustable coilovers and/or adjustable swaybar/perches, i did a google search and found these probably great -- though not "name brand" -- adjustable coilovers WITH camber plates online for around $1000. Although I'm new to the boxster world, unfortunately, I'm used to this kind of buyer regret(s) being a mac user my whole life and "loving" the feeling of getting a new computer delivered, turning it on, and finding the same computer online for a hundred bucks cheaper in the time it took me to get the new one delivered.

http://www.autozconcept.com/product_info.php?products_id=263

Don't worry, be happy
 

FishyFishFish,

Nothing f**ks up a car more than bargain coilovers. Dont't regret missing out on cr*p. I have seen these things advertised under at least 10 different brand names. Check out some Honda sites. They have the same ones for $600.

The problem with these and other cheap coilovers are the crummy adjustment mechanisms that jam after just a few months use and the poor rebound control and lack of real adjustability for low speed rebound.

If you want to save monet do it on springs but stick with name brand shocks or coilovers. And always match your shock rates to your spring rates. If a shock company can't tell you the range of spring rates for their shock then move on.

So, be happy that you "missed out" on this "bargain"

Regards,
Alan

Sound advice, and as far as these coilovers go, i'll take your word for it so thanks for the warning... however, i've found that the korean and/or chinese copies of overpriced european goodies marketed to porschephiles who automatically equate (over) price with quality are usually just as good -- the chinese headers on ebay being the best example... i could not tell the difference between the $100 ones and a pair of $1000 at my local porsche mechanic in santa monica, nor could the buyers, or the mechanic. but of course one was a brand that advertised in "Excellence" and one was not.

Gary, I have a Brand New set of RoW M030 "S" Springs... if you're interested in them, PM me.

thats actually kinda of soft, and the range is interesting. i'm not too family with boxster spring setup, but is the 200lb difference front to rear normal?

i have 400s up front and 550 in the back. i also have a dual spring setup, so its actually a bit higher than that.

i also have higher canister pressures up front than out back. by about 100lbs i think.

my ride is very comfy.

are you on 19s? go back to 18s if so. what is your exact setup now? and describe how the car rides.

and by porpoising. do you mean that under acell, the front end seems to lift up? if so, i think our cars just do that.

This thread got me down in my parking garage... and yes my car is still there ( a little dusty). Ok after measurements I was suprised to see by this style of measuring height that it was an even 4. All came in at 24-1/8" with 235/35/19 & 265/30/19 on oo' S running KW V2's with about 3" more to go in front and 3/4" to go in rear um dont think it would drive like that let alone get the jack out!

Porpoising may not be the term, I read it a few places and it is close to describing what I have going on. When I hit a dip in freeway the rear of the car feels as if it lifts off the ground, and once I know for a fact it did. If I hit a bump the same thing happens it feels as if the rear of the car is near coming off the ground.

AS far as any other driving the car is just fine, firm but thats what I wanted, al I want to solve is the rear end feeling, When I drove with the 19s and OEM struts and Elbachs I don't recall ever feeling this.

-Porpoising may not be the term, I read it a few places and it is close to describing what I have going on. When I hit a dip in freeway the rear of the car feels as if it lifts off the ground, and once I know for a fact it did. If I hit a bump the same thing happens it feels as if the rear of the car is near coming off the ground.


Have you ruled out hitting your bump stops? I have seen this occur under those circumstances.

Hitting the bump stops is a high possibility.
Now I will feel like a retard but I would assume if it was hitting the bump stops I would hear it?
The car does not make any noises from the suspension.
Is there a way to see if its hitting the bump stops?

Ok Mn Box we need to talk.
You are running your suspension lower than mine (and I thought I was low) and you have the same type 349 19 inch rims I have.

How is your ride?
What size tires are do you have on the car?
Maybe my coilovers just suck!!

Well I do know that camber (extreme) will wear tires fast. Im getting 2k miles on my rears ( three sets rear) about 70% on the fronts still. So I just purchased rear toe adjuster rods. My toe is waaaayy out and hope this will get me to about 5-6k on my rears. Id be happy with that its not like Im trying to get 20+k on the things.

I love my suspension! Yes I come from a long line of slammmmmed cars its not low enough until you cant barely drive it. .....Rides good! Just cant pull into my driveway from the left at over 5mph or Ill pull the left front fender off.

Might be some pics at my clubs myspace site TC Echelon or TCECHELON.COM

About bump stops on factory type suspension they are external and made of a hard foam usually orangish. Most performance suspensions have them internally and no you probably wont hear it if you hit it. It will feel like the suspension stopped moving downward abruptly and your car will basicly launch into the air. While your body feels sharp spine compaction and your kiddneys and organs go whoah! or something like that.

ok curiosity got the better of me.

i am at 25 3/16 all around. from floor to the bottom of the fender.

2K and you want 5-6K mileage??? SERIOUSLY! Umm, thats all TOE, toe kills tires way faster than camber.

I drive my car hard, and i autox, and I plan on getting 12k-15K on my tires.

porpoising... umm, do this, drive on a bumpy road, have someone drive behind you, or next to you. does that wheel still bounce up and down several seconds after you have hit that bump? If so, that shock is blown. There is no dampening, and you are just basically relying on the spring for your suspension in that corner.

Your final paragraph describes my issue.
I have adjustable dampening on my coilovers, as of now they are in the soft setting, would firming the dampening fix this? Make it better? or Gary get those things off of your car?

I think I will try firming them a couple of clicks and see how that does.

Try going here = "http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=165 687236&albumId=992312" for some reason Ive never been able to pics on this site... dont know if its a Mac thing? Looks like Ill need my buddies wife to do an update on pics.

Yeah Id try adjusting the dampning. It does also sound like the springs are over working your shocks. Do you think you could have blown the rears out?

Yes I just purchased Deluboz adjustable toe arm. Glad to here that it helped for you.

First let me say that everyone is certainly entitled to do what they want with their cars. But it makes me ill to think that people are taking one of the best handling cars on the planet and slamming it.

Your car was designed to have the minimum wheel travel based on car weight, spring rate and expected road irregularities. Basically the worst bump you might hit will compress the suspension almost to the bump stops.

Lowering springs shorten wheel travel. If you reduce wheel travel you have two choices. You can use stiffer spring rates so the worst bump you might encounter still won't hit the bump stops. Or you can use a lighter than needed rate and every once in a while the car will bottom out and hit the bump stops. Lets talk about why both these solutions are bad.

Very stiff spring rates make the car ride like crap. Furthermore your shocks were designed to control the bouncing of the stock rate springs. Putting in higher rate springs without getting shocks designed for those higher rates will lead to poor wheel control. After you hit a bump, the tire will continue to bounce up and down because the shock (or damper) cannot control the spring. Also the overworked shock can overheat leading to premature shock failure.

So what happens if you lower but don't raise spring rates enough? You hit the bump stops. When this happens going straight it will mostly result in you and the car suddenly stopping your downward motion. It will feel like you got hit in the a$$ from below. You probably will not hear anything other than your own cursing because bump stops are rubber or urethane. Of course you might hear your shocks crying for mercy. The easiest way to blow a shock is to bottom it out.

But worse still, is what happens if one corner of the car hits the bump stop when in a turn. Basically, its like the spring rate suddenly went to infinity at that corner. This can lead to extreme and immediate under or oversteer. The car will radically change direction. If this happens you probably won't hear it either; only the crunching of crashed metal.

Lowering the car an inch with lowering springs is fine. More than that and you need to redesign shocks, steering geometry, etc.

Just my opinion. Please don't take offense if you don't agree.

Regards,
Alan

Renzop I agree... its just that 1st KW V2s or v1s and v3s for that matter are a suspension package. It was designed to work with one another not the same as buying a shock from one co. and a spring from another or worse springs on stock shocks (being that you went any more than an inch. For the V2s on my car I have absolutly no issues. My suggestion on this is Im running @ about 80% on dampning. I personly love a kiddney jarring good time, even if it wears other components out faster. You just get to replace more things :) . As far as making the car handle worse than it was designed I do not agree. For one lowering the car can only lower the center of gravity. Two, the lower the car the more areo dynamic it becomes. Three, the stiffer the more responsive. Four the more camber larger the tire contact patch on the outside that is really giving you the "grip". This is all for the track of coarse and driving like this does have its down fall on the street. Too stiff and you will hop and slide (for the unsuspecting or unexperianced driver this is almost certain off road action. But in all seriousness you have gotta be pantie wetting low... well for that reason.

MNBOXX - I was just talking about lowering springs by themselves not coilovers or a designed complete suspension systems and I was talking about street driving. In general race trackes are much smoother then regular streets so you can go to much higher spring rates without bottoming (as long as you also go to much higher damping forces as well).

I disagree with your comment about the more camber the better. There is a balance between more negative camber and better cornering performance and too much neg camber and poor braking and acceleration. In general once you get beyond 2 degrees negative on drive wheels you start to give up acceleration grip and more than 3 degrees neg on non driven axles and you give up braking performance and stability under braking. YMMV

My comments were not meant for someone like you but for people who are only thinking about the looks of their lowered cars and are not aware of the compromises they may be making to the fine street handling and ride that Porsche developed for the Boxster.

Regards,
Alan

No, you are absolutely correct about a good balance on the camber issue. I guess I was just getting at by slamming our ride as much as I have, it still is in an ok angle. I think it was under -3 deg. which is fine for me. Id have to look for my last print out of specs to fully remember. I guess my point was not to worry about that with lowering our cars and to worry more about the overall handling/braking /accelerating. I dont see any problems with shock/ spring set-ups as long as they work in unison and dialed into the car. Anyone have a recommended (through experience) set up? Theres got to be a few that perform. I would really like to see a comparison on the slolom sense its where the Box excels. And yes I don't think its ever in best decision to just throw springs on factory shocks unless you are planning on replacing them after about 10k. That is what I have seen with other German makes with something like H&R 2" drop. They usually seem to ride fine at first but then quickly deteriorate, ( especially on higher mileage vehicles). Just curious has anyone noticed about the same mileage on their Porsche's doing the same?

Time for an update.

I adjusted the dampening on my coilovers. I went to the middle of the range in the rear and 20% in the front. I have the rear hopping issue almost solved. I have driven the car about 400 miles since I made the adjustments and have had only 1 unsettling moment. This is a major improvement because I was aiming for the unsettling parts of my drive tonight to see what happens.

I am going to try one full turn on the fronts and the back to see if I can get 100% hop free ride.

I will assume that the coilovers that I have are a good product but were not designed for my combination of 30 series tires on 19s.

The cars ride is a little rougher but not uncomfortable and the car seems even more planted than before. I have a new confidence with the car I have not had in a few months. I already noticed I get home a few minutes quicker ;)

Thanks for the help.....next comes sway bars.


Will sway bars make my ride even more rough?

I too have 30 series on 19s. Don't think the springs really know any different except there is more energy transfered to the springs. You just have to remember the ride will never be nice with that set-up so don't even try, just make that dampening stiff to slow down some more of that energy. If there's one thing that has always bothered me about factory vehicles, including Lambos and Rarrie's is they (low as they come) still ride high and soft. Let's see the weight transfer with that Box in the slalom now!