Schnell Headers on 986 with Stock Exhaust
 

Hi fellow Boxster owners

Im about to purchase a set of Schnell exhaust manifold for my 2000 Boxster S, mainly for the purpose of sound but Im wondering if it would give actual performance gains with the stock exhaust system in place?

Two reasons that I have chosen Schnell, 1: cheapest I can find (please link me if you know a better/cheaper product. 2: being a 2000 boxster s it doesnt have any cats near the manifold, fabspeed offers a set of headers with cats for double the price which i dont think i needed them.

Please share your thoughts.

:cheers:

I would think you would get a performance gain and sound gain from any brand out there from what I have read. The Porsche OEM headers on 2000 up cars have 4 cats. 2 integrated in the headers and 2 further back.

I have seen the fabspeed online and looks like a great system, but expensive as you mention. I also have interest in the maxspeed motorsports headers on ebay which are the only ones I have seen in that price range with 4 O2 bungs in them for the oxygen sensors.

From what I have read and talked with my local Pcar indie shop, you can expect 10-15 HP gain from headers depending...

Anything is better than the horribly designed system from Porsche. Another "keep the Boxster below the 911 in performance" design.

Let us know what you go with and how you feel about the change. I feel that is the next mod I will be doing to my car.

:cheers:

Thats weird I could only see two cats in my system, unless (see pic) that tiny pipe with a oxygen plug on top is the one of the second set of cats. There definitely no cats intergrated with the headers. If not I guess an possible explaination would be although my is classified as 2000 model but it actually was built in 99 (as what it says on the built plate).

Any more info on the maxspeed motorsports headers you mentioned?

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...70_1397807.jpg

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...70_1082263.jpg

I only picked up 6hp at the wheels on my 2.7L 2000 Boxster based on a before and after dyno runs when I added headers and a single pair of 100-cell cats (replacing the two stock pairs). A small hp gain, especially for the cost, but, boy does it sound sweet....

Ed

:cheers:

Panameras, the stock system on 200-2004 boxsters looks like the one on the left.
It looks like the manifolds are missing in the pic you provided!! Maybe it's just the angle....take a pic of the underside of the engine!!

A pic is attached of the stock headers with horrible merge collector and integrated cat converter.

You can see the 4 O2 bungs (2 precat, 2 postcat) I have referenced. The problem is extending the wires of the 2 precat O2 sensors so that they are now 4 postcat O2 sensors in order to not have CEL's when you install new headers that remove this terrible OEM design. I want to check with my local Pcar Dealer to ask his thoughts. I want to keep all O2 sensors if possible.

Maybe some other guys have done this successfully already?

Maxspeed Motorsports headers
 

Panameras, Did you get the message I sent you?

Jeff, I think you have to stick with some sort of pre-cat or CEL is likely. The 02 sensor will think there is an emissions device malfuction and more than likely throw a code if you go with a catless header i believe. I like these fabspeeds with high flow cats and before and after bungs. Yes, they are expensive but they have the cats and 4 bungs.

I have maxspeeds headers on my 2000 and I have had no CEL or any problems with these headers. I had big gains with headers, muffler and EVO intake. Look on his EBAY store, My dyno results on there.

Rule 1

I didn't see any dyno charts on the ebay store. Maybe I just missed it? It did say their opinion was 10-15 HP gain, but who knows really...

Did you go with the Maxspeed exhaust also? I have a B&B and like it so far.

Do you have the chart you can post along with sound clips, etc? I'd love to hear the sound difference.

I'm wondering if you can extend the O2 sensors that were in the cats and have 4 O2 sensors after the secondary cats thereby tricking the O2 sensors not to throw a code?

I will update if I get anything from my local mechanic.

Hey Edevlin-

What brand did you go with for your system and have you had any issues?

This might be an issue of US versus non-US cars. I have a 2001 S and replaced my headers with stainless Cargraphic ones. There are definately only two cats and O2 sensors on my car and the header dos not have the pre-cat pictured in the other post. It looked the same as panameras. I still have the old headers at the back of the garage and will post a picture later tonight.

you are right noone986s, I just fond out that US and North American 2.7 and 3.2 has 4 cat. but ROW has only 2 near the muffler. Im from Australia btw.

see bottom half of the picture, just manifold pipes no cat! sorry about the angle cant get my camera under there without jacking it up.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...1770_14984.jpg

I guess thats a bonus for us since we dont have to go through the trouble of relocating the oxygen sensors!

so what do you think of these :D
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...y_1956_9641300

yeah I got your message thanks for that.

btw which muffler are you using? does it drone a lot? thats the only concern I have holding me back from get one.

Adam, is that the Fabspeed muffler? how does it sound any drone?

I don't have first hand experience, but 1 or 2 guys on here have used the newer fabspeed muffler and said there was drone in the 2-3k rpm range. It not GHL bad but it is more than stock. I am considering using the Fabspeed header/cat combo with the main cat delete bypass pipes with the stock muffler. The stock muffler flows well according to the experts and isn't too loud. I think this combo would give a nice bump in power and sound without being over bearing.

This is what I have installed, but the 3.2 versions. I have a pic of the old ones that I need to download from my phone. They have no cat.

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.php?/s,6,7,18,714,2436/&start=12

The second ones you posted look good, but be aware that most of the bolts snapped and I had to helicoil them.

Will post photo later of the old one.

I am trying to choose a silencer that is not too noisy :)

good to know stock muffler is up to the job. your combo sounds good, actually would be the most ideal setup IMO. hardly any aftermarket mufflers are drone-free, except maybe milltek so I have heard.

thats some expensive and quality hardware *drool* excellent choice!

as for the silencer have you considered modifying your current one? like this:http://www.ppbb.com/boards/ppbbphp/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ARCHIVES&Number=1067764&pa ge=8&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Yeah I have seen that before, a bit too loud I think, I need to be under 98db for most of the trackdays here.

these maxspeed headers are not bad all. stainless steel, nice welds, neat merge collector. quite a bargain too at $575. what do you all think?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320143166771&fromMakeT rack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us


http://www.maxspeed-motorsports.com/...986headers.jpg

As I said in a previous post, I picked up about 6 hp with headers, and high-flow cats. I got another 4 hp or so with the addition of a TTP cold air intake. That gives only a 10 hp or so increase on my 2000 2.7L boxster with modding the intake and exhaust systems.

That increase is significantly less than many of the claims that are made for such mods, but I think those are pretty realistic numbers for improvements of the 2.7L engine. As i understand it, both the 2.5L and 3.2L engines respond better with more hp with some of these same mods.

When I chipped the car, I picked up a little over 12 additional hp on the dyno. That means that depending on the dyno run, I am doing these days, I am only getting 20-25 hp over stock than stock with a full-on intake, exhaust and chip mod of the car (about 205 hp at the wheels). Again, much less than some of the claims for these mods. That being said, the car runs great, it is quite responsive and I love the sound of the exhaust, but those additional horses were not cheap....


Ed

:cheers:

go to maxpeeds ebay store and where he is selling the header and muffler combo, My dyno results are there.

For reference attached is the picture of the OEM header I removed.

Thanks

That's the same exhaust manifold the 2.5L cars have. It looks like you were correct in assuming the non-US 2000-2004 cars are different.

Thats true, its understandable that Porsche purposely restrained the power output of the 3.2 Boxster so it doesnt intimidate the 3.4 Carrera. Where as the 2.7 was tuned to its near maximum to keep up with the competition (Z4 3.0, SLK350 etc..)

Genuine Gemballa Headers on eBay! $1445usd!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GEMBALLA-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-HEADERS-FOR-PORSCHE-BOXSTER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46093QQihZ007QQ itemZ170137965043QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I wonder if these are indeed $870usd better than the $575 Maxspeed headers!

http://i24.ebayimg.com/02/i/06/eb/af/1d_1.JPG

I have the new FabSpeed exhaust, and unfortunately yes, it does drone in the 2-3k range. I am still on stock headers, but am looking for ideas there. The FabSpeed headers are gorgeous and I am sure will not cause any CEL related issues, but damn are they pricey.

Heres my latest idea for a perfect exhaust for these cars: High flow catted headers (a la FabSpeed) to guarantee improved flow and scavenging, yet also no CEL related issues. Secondary cat deletes. Now, heres where I would like to think I'm onto something: Stock 03 muffler, but with RPM activated dump valves (almost like turbo wastegates) BEFORE the muffler section, that begin to open at say, 3500 RPM, and are fully open by say, 4500 RPM. With this design you have a perfectly quiet car for normal driving and cruising, with no resonance issues, yet when you get on the power, as the RPMs rise and you get into the meat of the power curve, you get a very free flowing exhaust, that will sound glorious as well.

Anyone else think this could hold some promise? I have a very qualified shop here that could do the work on designing a system like this, and we could have a prototype I'd be happy to test.

Patrick

Bogg tried some valves like that on his stock muffler and the results...well lets just say some people liked it and some didn't. It didn't sound very "exotic." I'll try to find the videos he made. I do like the idea of using the stock muffler though with headers and bypass pipes. I think that would make a good combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-uX9z_Rg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpXhUN6-vsk&mode=related&search=

and with straight through pipes! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VI-rTaUmU

"Stock 03 muffler, but with RPM activated dump valves (almost like turbo wastegates) BEFORE the muffler section, that begin to open at say, 3500 RPM, and are fully open by say, 4500 RPM. With this design you have a perfectly quiet car for normal driving and cruising, with no resonance issues, yet when you get on the power, as the RPMs rise and you get into the meat of the power curve, you get a very free flowing exhaust, that will sound glorious as well.

Anyone else think this could hold some promise? I have a very qualified shop here that could do the work on designing a system like this, and we could have a prototype I'd be happy to test.

Patrick"

I like that idea very much. A bit like F430s when the cams open up at higher rpm. Not saying it will sound like a ferrari but the sudden "explosion" of exhaust note of a flat six should still be as sexy.

"Genuine Gemballa Headers on eBay! $1445usd!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GEMB...sspagenameZWDVW

I wonder if these are indeed $870usd better than the $575 Maxspeed headers!"


I dont know, but most of the mechanics I talk to say that good headers for our cars are not cheap, because of the low volume of units sold. I think my german TTP headers for my 2.7L were 1,800.00. The shop that installed them loved them, they said the materials, welds and mating surfaces were as good or better than stock parts. They also said they had experience installing and then removing some pretty poor looking and fitting headers from other manufactures.

Ed

:cheers:

I am familiar with Bogg's setup, and the main problem with that, in my opinion, is that you are stuck with the valves in one position, at all RPMS. That sound is going to be great at higher RPMs, but sound AWFUL at low RPMs. Many modern cars employ systems similar to this (Corvette, F430, etc) to gain the benefits of both a quiet exhaust for cruising and a free flowing exhaust for power.

The question to be resolved for my idea, is how to control the valves. Vacuum? Electric Servo? One hypothetical advantage of vacuum or pneumatic control, would be that at higher RPMS but low power settings, there may not be enough force to open the valves, which could be a good thing. I'd look at starting to open the valves somewhere around 3500-4000 RPM, and have them fully open by 4500-5000 RPM. This way, you are not intruding at all on cruising noise levels.

This may be a winter project.

Patrick

You could install these electric ones.....

http://www.badlanzhpe.com/index.html

.....and then get a cheap shift light circuit from ebay, hack it and use the ouput of that to drive a relay circuit (rather than lighting the shift light) and you could have a configurable exhaust valve.

If you could have the valves opening into bypass pipes then I think you could be on to a winner. I am not 100% on the sound but like the idea.

That could be one way of doing this, though I am thinking of a more progressive opening, over say, a 1000 RPM from beginning to open to fully open, rather than just a hard RPM point from open/close.

There needs to be a bit more engineering put into this, perhaps it will become a winter project.

Patrick

Just put my order through for a set of Maxspeed headers. Will dyno it afterwards to see how they perform on my 3.2.

Baseline was 168rwkw on a very hot day.

:cheers:

good choice!!!

Hey Panameras-

Please update us on the results from a HP gain and sound/feel perspective. I talked to my local pcar mechanic and his basic answer to me was, "WHY?". You're not going to gain much HP and going to be throwing CEL codes all over the place. Our situations are different because of the integrated cat in my headers. I think I'd be much more likely to do it if we had the Euro headers here with only 2 cats.

Good luck and hope you like them.

:cheers:

Unfortunately, if you want headers on US Spec cars, I think the only real choices are Cargraphic and FabSpeed as they have high flow cats in the headers. Pricey, very pricey however. I do think there are power gains to be had though, considering the dismal design of the factory headers on this car.

Patrick

Received the headers today :dance: quite excited as you can imagine! It was paid last friday and they arrived here nicely packed (including gaskets and studs) on Wednesday. Not bad for delivering half way across the globe! Abosultely happy with their service. Going to put them on the car tomorrow. Will record some sound files for before and after. For the mean time here are some pictures that I took this afternoon :cheers:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...957_328090.jpg

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...957_294360.jpg

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...1957_34921.jpg

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...1957_70819.jpg

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...957_309232.jpg

Now can any forum moderators change the title of this thread to Maxspeed headers on 986..... instead of schnell? :)