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Old 02-18-2011, 04:50 AM   #1
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Govít Has Borrowed an Additional $29,660 Per Household Since Obama Signed Stimulus

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/gov-t-has-borrowed-2966055-household-oba
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:42 AM   #2
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but of course you know that addtional borrowing is not because of the stimulus?
It's because we have had a decade of weak GDP growth that is not keeping pace with social security, medicare and defense spending. A decade that saw barely 30K jobs created a month when we were averaging 300K a jobs a month in the 90s.

Had there been no stimulus bill, you'd still be borrowing $27K per house largely on account of the economy going into the ditch after decade of truely insane lending and investing that some pretty smart people assured us would reign itself in before it all ended in tears. Well didn't really play out that way and everyone's business has suffered because the one thing we can't afford to mess with is banks and lending.

I really hope some day that people start to realize that discretionary spending (like the stimulus bill) is about a dime vs. the 90 cents of deficit entitlement spending every year. Which would make the stimulus and even the bank bailout about a penny in comparsion to the size of the red ink.

To date, neither Obama, nor any[U] Republican has dared to put forward cuts to the 90 cent part of that bill, the one that adds 90 cents of debt every year when the best either party can put forward from is about 4 cents in cuts. That's right for all this budget fighting in this new Congress they're fighting over nickels when they know full well we're talking silver dollars every year. We should have this paid off by the year 2500.

p.s.
You cant' move a $14 Trillion economy with an $800 billion stimulus bill. Especially not when 2/3's of that was tax breaks, tax incentives and aid to the states (red and blue alike) to keep them from going bankrupt overnight. Which leaves you with $250 billion in actual stimulus -- to be spread over several years-

Point is we never had a stimulus, we got one life preserver for an entire ship of people that all went into the water. A stimulus bill geared toward blue collar manufacturing might have worked but that sort of thing would have cost a heck of a lot more than $200 billion because you're talking heavy machinery, job training, improving infrastructure on the level of a population of 400 million. It would require borrowing like we did during World War II. Which is almost what we're doing today but its going towards consumption by older Americans (medicare, social security) rather than production by younger Americans (engineering, tech, science, etc.).
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:15 PM   #3
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PL-

Got to hand it to you, you can make up pretty much anything you want.

Let's see if I can work this through. The Stimulus was supposed to right the ship. Unemployment was supposed to drop back to 8% and GDP was supposed to surge.

Did that happen?

Ah, no. In fact, this POTUS is likely the worst occupant in the WH in my memory when it comes to understanding economics. That said, he has plenty of company on the Hill. Indeed, even Tim Giethner admitted that the budget that Obama just submitted was "not sustainable" in a rather embarassaing appearance on the Hill yesterday.

Now, while the whole thing cannot be laid at Obama's feet, he has to take responsibility for what he has done and is proposing to do, which is pretty much kick the can down the road until the next election passes.

Good thing the House will not let him do that.

I think he really showed what he is about in regard to the Wisconsin situation. Actively working to keep the public unions in business and to h** with the taxpayers.

What an a**clown he is.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:17 PM   #4
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"You cant' move a $14 Trillion economy with an $800 billion stimulus bill. Especially not when 2/3's of that was tax breaks, tax incentives and aid to the states (red and blue alike) to keep them from going bankrupt overnight. Which leaves you with $250 billion in actual stimulus -- to be spread over several years-"

You sir, know nothing about economics. Thanks for proving it in print.

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Old 02-18-2011, 08:24 PM   #5
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:26 AM   #6
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Long but worth it

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/02/18/the-madison-blues/
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:46 AM   #7
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:08 AM   #8
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Some responses above were all too predictable. In all, each one of Americaís 112,611,029 households represents $125,475.18 of the national debt. IMO, assigning blame at this time is pointless (anyone with any shred of fiscal acumen can see the obvious), fixing it (via MASSIVE budget cuts) is PARAMOUNT!! I am personally very reassured at the fiscal shake up going on across the country (local, state and federal), hopefully the movement will not lose steam.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:58 PM   #9
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It's amazing to think that it took nearly 50 yrs to run up our first $8T debt in 2007, but only another 5 yrs to double it. It's good people got the debt "religion", but it is now far too late. Few can afford their debt portion, and those who can can't afford those who can't. I haven't heard a single economist say this debt (including entitlements, state, and municipal) can be repaid w/o destroying our currency. The patient is terminal. Hope for soft landing and rebirth.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:49 PM   #10
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Actually, fixing the issue is doable but hard, kind of like stoppiong drinking.

It is simple to do, but very hard. First, you have to get honest enough to admit what a loser you are. Then, the work can begin.

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Old 02-20-2011, 08:33 AM   #11
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Actually, fixing the issue is doable but hard, kind of like stoppiong drinking.

It is simple to do, but very hard. First, you have to get honest enough to admit what a loser you are. Then, the work can begin.

Good luck taking that tack in congress. Peter Schiff on the debt issue:

paste into browser: http://www.youtube.com/user/schiffreport?blend=1&ob=4]youtube - schiffreport

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brucelee
Now, while the whole thing cannot be laid at Obama's feet, he has to take responsibility for what he has done and is proposing to do, which is pretty much kick the can down the road until the next election passes.

Good thing the House will not let him do that.
"not let him do that"

huh???

Where you travelling the world in the last quarter of 2010? If so you missed the GOP leadership brokering the proverbial can getting kicked down the road to the tune of ANOTHER $700 billion in increased deficits.

When will this new Congress be asking for a repeal of that budget deal with the required $700 billion in spending cuts? (crickets)

This idea that the "new" Congress is doing anything about the deficits and our current $14 trillion debt is a sad joke. Anyone who "knows anything about Economics" as you say, understands that neither Republicans nor Democrats nor Tea Party have put so much as a dent in the these historic deficits in any way since the 2010 election nor will they be doing anything any time soon. They are merely making a lot of noise about it in for the TV cameras in hopes of pandering to their respective audiences who don't actually take the time to see that arguing that 6% in Republican cuts in response to $1.6 trillion budget shortfall is "geting serious" and that the Dimocras 4% in proposed cuts is "spending gone wild". THEY ARE BOTH IN RED BY OVER 90%

So "Mr. Econonics", at a rate of 6% in cuts with annual deficits exceeding $1.5 trillion PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR, how exactly is this Congress putting the brakes on anything? LOL at 6% a year you'll have the deficit just from 2010 payed off by 2035 and that would of course require 2012 and beyond to be balanced with no interest payments on the existing debt. Good thing they're keeping on eye on Obama. Where would be without that additional 2-3% in spending cuts.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:39 AM   #13
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Setting aside all the fingerpointing and banter in this thread (which I have rather enjoyed!) I must say that I am really, REALLY concerned. Our government cannot borrow our way out of debt, and no citizen is willing to take the tax hikes or cuts in benefits (realized today or when he or she becomes eligible for social security and medicare).

We are in for some very hard economic days in the USA, which will only be exacerbated by what's happening in the Middle East right now.

Even a middle aged guy like me who lives within his means, owns his home and cars outright, and has money saved in the bank for retirement has a lot to be concerned about.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:42 AM   #14
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BTW, here's something a friend of mine (John Pate, Austin TX) wrote up recently FWIW.

7 (Fairly) Painless Things to Help our Economy

Letís face it, Americas hate anything unpleasant even if it is good for us. We eat what is bad for us and consequently we are overweight. Then we join the gym but then stop showing up after a few weeks. We set a budget but donít follow it. Most of us have a half a dozen projects around the house that are undone. We have good intentions but until we have a crisis-- we donít change. Itís just too painful.

Today, our economy is showing the results of undisciplined governmental spending, zero down home loans, off-shoring jobs, and poor education of our kids. Fixing these problems will not be fast or easy. And, they will require discipline and a probable lowering of our lifestyles. The folks know this and are not willing to give up their goodies. How much were UAW willing to give up to keep GM and Chrysler afloat? Thatís right, not enough to keep them out of bankruptcy and if not for the governmental bailout they would have let them go under. What about Social Security? With almost 80 million Baby Boomers who started retiring this year we will run through our surplus funds by 2038 according to the Social Security Boards of Trusteeís 2009 report. Seems like the AARP should be calling for changes but no, they tell us to ďIgnore the fear-mongering...Ē They know their members wonít accept the pain of change. Our government knows we headed towards a train wreck economy and put together a bipartisan deficit commission. However, the committee rejected their own final report when only 11 of their 18 members voted for it to be formally adopted. And on-and-on with every special interest group arguing that their precious program canít accept even the smallest spending cut. Even spending freeze is called a ďcutĒ when the planed-for increases in spending are threatened.

Obviously, not enough our fellow citizens or politicians see our spending, deficits, or slow economy as large enough of a problem to accept the pain of the cuts. And, yes the cuts will be painful. Therefore, my proposal is to take actions today that can help the economy without throwing people out of work or causing a significant decline in our standard of living. These changes wonít be enough to turn around the economy or deal with our root causes of our deficit. However, they will help get the economy heading in the right direction and who knows, perhaps we can grow our way out of this Great Recession.

1. Ban Earmark Spending. ~$16 billion a year. Does Alaska really need another bridge to nowhere? Will West Virginia benefit from another memorial to Robert Bird? The answer is clearly no. Besides having a corroding effect on our democracy it is a complete waste of money that wouldnít be spent if it werenít ďfreeĒ. This very proposal was recently rejected by the Senate but bring it up again now that the new Congress has been sworn into office.

2. Phase out Farm Subsidies. ~$180 billion a year in direct and indirect subsidies. Put into place during the Great Depression, this is one of those programs that wonít go away. But do we really need to subsidize tobacco farmers? Why should 75% of the subsidies go to giant industrial farms owned by multi-billion dollar corporations? It is time to end this money waster, especially while prices for agricultural products are reaching record highs.

No convinced? Take a look at our Iowa-driven pork barrel project to turn corn into ethanol. Corn is up 65% in prices since June of this year. The US government has already provided $6B in subsidies to keep an uncompetitive fuel from being abandoned. To make matters worse these subsidies are project to go up as much as 10x higher in the next few years. Ethanol cost $10 a gallon and also offers lower fuel mileage which means not only do we subsidize the corn, but then have to pay more at the pump to have it added to our gasoline. Cut out the subsidies to corporations now and then phase them out to smaller farms over the next 10 years. This will allow the farms to adjust their planting to better reflect the actual demand of consumers.

3. Freeze hiring on Federal employees. During this Great Recession government has continued to hire and our tax dollars are now supporting an additional 80,000 employees. While the private sector has cut back millions of workers our government with a $14 trillion dollar deficit somehow feels it can afford to keep adding on employees. When governmental budgets are cut back, and they will be eventually, these folks will be shoved not so gently to the curb because we just canít afford them.

4. Repeal Sarbanes Oxley. In 2002 on the heels of the Enron accounting fraud Congress passed this little gem of a bill. Maintaining compliance is estimated to cost corporations up to 3-4% of their bottom lines. The costs are so high many foreign corporations on the NYSE delisted and went back home to Europe or their countries of origin. With this thorough level of bookkeeping we obviously have eliminated fraud and malfeasance, right? Sure, if you are willing to overlook HealthSouth (2003), Nortel (2003), Chiquita (2004), AIG (2004), Lehman (2010), not to mention Freddie Mac and Fannie May. The costs are high for large corporations but where this regulation really hurts is for small corporations that donít have a small army of accountants. These corporations do not go public and thus cannot tap funds from the stock market to expand and hire because of paperwork. Obama recently said he wanted to get rid of unnecessary government regulations that slow economic growth. Well, hereís a fat ball down the middle of the plate Mr. President.

5. Reduce taxes rates of repatriated corporate profits. It is estimated that American corporations are sitting on $1 trillion dollars of profits made by their overseas subsidiaries. American corporations are keeping this money overseas to avoid paying US taxes after already paying foreign taxes. Keep it overseas and pay no additional taxes. Repatriate your profits and give up as much as 35% in taxes to Uncle Sam. Yet this money could help fuel investments, research and development or hiring in America. Why not reduce taxes, even if temporarily, to allow these corporations to bring home this money? After all, getting 10% of a trillion is better than 35% of nothing.

6. Open up energy exploration in ANWAR and the West and East coasts of the US. We really do not know exactly how much oil is available in these areas since drilling has been restricted so long that geologists havenít bothered to look with the latest technolgies. However, the amounts of oil are though to be enormous. The USGS estimated in 1998 that between 5.7 and 16.0 billion barrels of recoverable crude oil and natural gas liquids are in ANWAR alone. The restricted areas off the coasts of the US are thought to have similar oil reserves. To obtain any significant amount of oil would take at least 5 years but the oil companies would have to hire tens of thousands of workers now to start this process. As an example of the jobs impact the recent executive order to stop all new exploration in the Gulf is estimated to have resulted in 20,000 jobs lost and impacted the pay of hundred of thousands of oil and gas employees as less equipment and services were used. The added bonus is every barrel of oil obtained domestically is a barrel we are not importing from the Middle East. And, looking at what is going on in Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, and other countries it is clear that this is not a dependable part of the world to base your economic well-being.

7. Eliminate employee FICA tax on people who choose to keep working after they reach 65. Itís unfair to keep charging Social Security taxes on people when they have paid in for a lifetime. And, after turning so many 401kís into 201kís, a lot of older workers are finding they need to work later in life than previously planned. The good news is by incenting workers to stay employed later in life, these folks are less likely to need to tap Medicaid or other types of welfare payments. A good percentage of these folks will also continue to receive health insurance from their employer instead of the government. Letís incent them to keep working by boosting their take-home pay and allow our senior citizens to better enjoy their golden years.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:06 AM   #15
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PL-You simply don't know how to read. Nowhere did I suggest that the current House (which has been in office for less than 2 months) is going to "solve" this issue.

What I did suggest is that Obama is a socialist of the highest order. So, the fact that he is talking about the Feds making investments ought to make any rational person

Yes, radical changes need to be made. No, radical changes are not yet being proposed. It is notworthy that that the POTUS summarily ignored his own panel's recommendations on debt reduction.

That Obama is some leader.

Right down the tubes
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:31 PM   #16
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Well, some new radical changes are being proposed in my state. Our new Governor is looking to eliminate collective bargaining for most state employees and teachers, talk about going for the jugular.........

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/22/ohio-teachers-center-battle-union-rights/
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:44 PM   #17
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PL-You simply don't know how to read. Nowhere did I suggest that the current House (which has been in office for less than 2 months) is going to "solve" this issue.

What I did suggest is that Obama is a socialist of the highest order. So, the fact that he is talking about the Feds making investments ought to make any rational person

Yes, radical changes need to be made. No, radical changes are not yet being proposed. It is notworthy that that the POTUS summarily ignored his own panel's recommendations on debt reduction.

That Obama is some leader.

Right down the tubes

ahhhhh yer back pedalin'.... you said the Congress would not allow Obama to blow out our budgets anymore and of course they are blowing it out just the same...plus or minus 2% of course depedning how you look at the budget implications of making the 01 and 03 tax cuts permanent. (that's A LOT of welfare checks and govt cheese to eliminate should get you about .0001% of the $700 billion.

For the record, after 8 quarters from innauguration, Obama's discretionary spending fo 109% is roughly in between Reagan and Clinton on low end (100% over their respective predecessors) and below Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.'s 115% increase for those two. That's mostly due to the fact that the massive bail outs of AIG, Citigroup, Goldman, etc, Fannie and Freddie, the autos, etc nearly all came under Bush jr and his buddy Hank Paulson, same with Bush Senior in the S&L banking crisis. Also, the notion that Obama is a socialist is really sort like saying that Tom Coburn is a fascist. A bit of an exaggeration to say the least since when you analyze their differences on discretionary spending you're talking about billions upons billions going to the same FOR PROFIT special interests in banking, healthcare and defense. And of course their stock prices have all surged 100% since all of this supposed socialism.
Put it this way, for there to be even be 5% of "Obama socialism" for the masses there has to be some corporate special interest profiting six or seven times that amount first. This notion that the govt will change drastically from a one corrupt political party to another is just fodder for right and left wing talk radio and "news" networks. These guys spend more time cutting deals with each other than anything else.

Let me leave you with George Washington's wisdom. He was Federalist who was very suspicious of the role that political parties would ultimately play in shaping the country. He felt that a partisan would ultimately be a servant to his party rather than being a servant to his nation. Our first President could not have been more right.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:30 PM   #18
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The fact that Obama is a socialist is simply beyond dispute. The fact that he has not been able to advance his agenda as far as he would LOVE to do is simply a extranality that he has not figured out a way around.


As much as you LOVE to trash the GOP (I am not a member of the GOP) they are the ONLY hope (in this two party system) that we have to get a grip. You also love to trash the tea party.

Who do you propose we elect, YOU?

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Old 02-22-2011, 03:41 PM   #19
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The fact that Obama is a socialist is simply beyond dispute. The fact that he has not been able to advance his agenda as far as he would LOVE to do is simply a extranality that he has not figured out a way around.


As much as you LOVE to trash the GOP (I am not a member of the GOP) they are the ONLY hope (in this two party system) that we have to get a grip. You also love to trash the tea party.

Who do you propose we elect, YOU?

very simple.

1- renounce any party membership. Be it Republican, Democrat or Tea Party.

2- if anyone from the above calls your home looking for money tell them to eat **************** and Die.

3-DO NOT....under any circumstances vote along party lines.

4- DO NOT EVER vote for the same politican twice.


If everyone dutifully carried out all of the above there might actually be substantive different between Republicans and Democrats. But since they know they each have their ultra reliable voters who would rather eat a fiberglass sandwich than vote for the other party any changes to the status quo amount to little more than a ton of rhetoric with marginal (at best) changes from one party to the next.
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:46 AM   #20
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-23/when-pretending-fails-to-hide-bankruptcy-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html
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