Ims guardian drain plug...

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by particlewave

You guys are throwing every excuse out there. Maybe just admit a defective product? Nah...
It's the customers fault, as always

A lot of us do our own oil changes with the stock plug and never have an issue. Seems like LN plugs leak if you don't get them tight enough, leak if you use correct torque and crack and leak if too tight.
That points to a bad product. You say it's not common, yet I've read more reports of leaking LN plugs over the years than I can keep track of.

Good on you for offering replacements, but quit blaming the customer and own up.

I was offering a technical reason for some of the things that are experienced. Thats all.

The consumer can blame the product, and the manufacturer can blame the consumer/ installer. This does no good, all that we can do is treat each case technically, and try to understand the variables that can cause anything to happen to any product.

What matters is no matter why someone has had an issue, I've always replaced an MCD sensor, no questions asked (even when someone crashed their car and had an issue, we would sell them a replacement for cost). I have done this with someone when their product was out of warranty for 5 years.

Unless someone tries to take advantage of us, or unless they become a jerk, we treat everyone the way we'd expect to be treated if the roles were reversed.

[epapp]

Will add to the fire - first magnetic LN plug cracked, new LN plug leaks. I also bought a standard oil plug for when I'm fed up with the LN plug leak.

Maybe the 986 has an awefully troublesome oil pan but I gotta say, have never had issues with any oil plug ever until now - infact most could be just barely tighter than finger tight and still seal.

[Jake Raby]

The original post was about the IMS Guardian MCD sensor, not the LN Magnetic drain plug. The two units are not the same material, and are not even made in the same factory. They share nothing in common. They are also not offered by the same company.

A drain plug has no reason to be super tight, it is not a fastener; it only needs enough pre- load to crush the sealing washer and stay in place. The last poster stating that just beyond finger tight is ok, is something I agree with. This is why the MCD sensor torque is 19#.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

A drain plug has no reason to be super tight, it is not a fastener; it only needs enough pre- load to crush the sealing washer and stay in place. The last poster stating that just beyond finger tight is ok, is something I agree with. This is why the MCD sensor torque is 19#.

Jake – if the problem is indeed ‘over-torqueing’ then read-on.

Most of the ‘vital’ hex found of prototype racing equipment are not standard DIN nor ANSI/ISO, or JIS! This is to prevent over-torqueing by trackside crew while under (human)stress.

E.g. if a 14mm hex head bolt needs a lightweight 19#, we would machine it at 13.35mm. It will simply spin-off at 19.5# without damaging the hex head and that while using a standard metric socket or wrench size (i.e if a specific torque wrench is nowhere to be found urgently, which happen a lot in the pits unfortunately).

Might worth implementing old tricks like that in your product line, still used as off today and heard F1 crews uses similar techniques. I have an old chart here that I’ve kept off from eng dept at the time, let me know what size hex you are using vs its torque spec and I’ll revert back with the correct non-standard hex size that needs to be machined. Unfortunately I cannot send out the full chart and I’m sure you understand why.

ps: there is no such thing as finger-tight in the industry. Misleading and needs clarification quick before someone think its how its done. Ppl do actually listen and trust you mate, careful

Keep up the good work

[Nine8Six]

Thinking this again... you'd need to provide the corresponding tolerance wrench or socket with your product which is dead cheap to manufacture anyway but perhaps impractical for you, dunno.

Call it the faultless-wrench something

Then who cares.... I'm 100% certain everybody here is only using state-of-the-art standard"ized" Snap-On tooling to wrench on their beloved Porsche anyway so they wouldn't need that complementary wrench from LN

[particlewave]

My beef is that I know exactly what's wrong with the LN magnetic drain plug, so I must assume that LN does, too. Yet, I have not seen the problem acknowledged or addressed yet. Instead, I see representatives and supporters of the product place blame on the customer.

The design is flawed...

Again, I applaud the customer service, but I'd have a lot more respect for someone that came out said, "hey, we messed up, we've noticed a design flaw and fixed it".

[JayG]

Originally Posted by particlewave

My beef is that I know exactly what's wrong with the LN magnetic drain plug, so I must assume that LN does, too. Yet, I have not seen the problem acknowledged or addressed yet. Instead, I see representatives and supporters of the product place blame on the customer.

The design is flawed...

Again, I applaud the customer service, but I'd have a lot more respect for someone that came out said, "hey, we messed up, we've noticed a design flaw and fixed it".

OK Charles, don't keep us in suspense

[Meir]

Anyone knows how come we don't have the smiley dude with the popcorn like other forums have?
Could be very useful right now

[Fintro11]

Originally Posted by Meir

Anyone knows how come we don't have the smiley dude with the popcorn like other forums have?
Could be very useful right now

[particlewave]

Originally Posted by JayG

OK Charles, don't keep us in suspense

The very things touted as advantageous

LN addressed the issue with OEM drain plugs stripping by providing a larger hex socket and making the plug out of a harder aluminum alloy: 6061-T6.
Great ideas, but this means the the plug wall is thinner and the material is more brittle, hence the cracks, from microscopic to large enough to be seen with the naked eye.
When you tighten a bolt, plug, etc. with a hex drive, radial force is exerted from the axis of rotation outward. Depending on the force exerted, a softer alloy will strip and a harder alloy may crack.

I'd be happier with a softer alloy and OE size hex. Please don't think I'm bashing LN or the 3 amigos as they contribute greatly to the community. I just don't agree with the "blame the end user" mentality.

[epapp]

At the end of the day, I just want plug that is magnetic and doesn't leak...???¿¿


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Nine8Six]

I wasn't suggesting that the problem was at the customer end Charles. What do I know. All I've seen here is one or more responses from Jake who've identified the problem as such and therefore suggested a tech solution to help for the problem elimination process.

Like I said above, again, "IF" the problem is indeed over-torquing as claimed by the manufacturer. Not supporting any on my own claims either bud. Only tech talks

[Muzzle of Bees]

I would say it is a product problem. Too many people with issues. I have replaced my drain plug with a new Porsche plug. My original one was stripped, it did not leak and my new one does not leak. I have many vehicles that I change oil on with no leaks at the plug. I do use new crush rings sometimes, but not always.

[epapp]

Update: breaking the plug, rotating it back and fourth a bit and retightening solved the leak.

Why so temperamental?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by epapp

Update: breaking the plug, rotating it back and fourth a bit and retightening solved the leak.

Why so temperamental?

Told ya so.

It all has to do with the position that the crush ring makes final contact when the unit is tightened. If it rests on a more uneven portion of the sump plate, you'll stand a better chance of a leak. If it doesn't, it'll often seal right up with no issues.

Instead of doing this procedure of breaking torque, then re- torquing, people always feel the need to wrench down on it, and that creates bigger issues that can sometimes compromise the unit immediately. Tighter is better, right? No, thats why the unit has a torque spec.

I have had the same thing happen with factory drain plugs, which was one reason why the magnetic plug was developed in 2006. In fact, I learned this technique of breaking torque, then reapplying it with stock drain plugs, not the LN unit, or my MCD.

That said, over time we've seen a degradation of some of the crush rings too. These all are genuine, but some have an inner diameter thats .25mm too large, which makes ID of the crush ring not conform to the OD of the drain plug concentrically. This further aggravates the issue, and makes it more of a risk of not seating perfectly. The same thing holds true with the crush rings that seal under the chain tensioners, tons of issues with those, (genuine Porsche) to the point that we had to have our own manufactured.

Another variable is the oil thats used... One reason I hate Mobil 1 with a passion, is because it will leak when nothing else will, due to its composition. Oils that use an additive package that includes Chlorinated Paraffin always tend to leak worse than anything else. I have seen times when an engine would have leaks with M1, and the oil was changed, and the leaks went away. This is especially true with aircooled Porsche engines. Some additive packages based on esters will also cause this to be more of an issue, so even oil is an uncontrollable variable.

I believe in owning any mistake, and in my world I take it on the chin all the time with new developments that don't work out in testing. At the same time, when you have scenarios like this, that have a ton of technical variables present, each case can have a different root cause. Luck plays into it too, if the crush gasket lands in the wrong spot you'll have a leak, and that could be Porsche's fault (machining of sump plate, or crush ring), a driver's fault from hitting some road hazard with the sump plate, or the installers fault, only because he touched it.

This also means it could be my fault, or Charles' fault, too, and everything is always our fault. When the finger pointing exercise begins, the part that was added on always get the finger first- no matter what. No one can manage, or control these variables. In this type of situation, all that can be done is supporting the sale, and offering a replacement unit, hoping thats good enough. This thread has proven that its not good enough.