Oiling issue on the track.... took my motor today
 

Hey y'all;
I think the new rubber stuck well enough today that I must've been oil-starving the motor in some sweepers. I thought it developed a noise, but couldn't really reproduce it.
3 miles after leaving the track, it started knocking, really badly.
So I towed it home.

I'll tear into it when I can.... but I'm dead in the water, again. ::sigh::

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Uh-oh. Sorry to hear that!

That's why I went with 200 treadwear tires instead of the stickiest options. Two of the tracks that I go to have long left-hand sweepers, which seem to be the bane of our M96 motors.

Maytag

Sorry to hear about the knock...
When you start pushing it, these motors will oil starve.
I have my setup well documented with schematics and photos if you are interested.
Been working for me the last 100 hours of hard track time.

Regards

Yeah, east track in Utah has plenty of left handers, but all relatively slow/ quick, si Friday was uneventful.
But the west track on Saturday, the are several long, fast, high-g left- handers. I should've been thinking about that. But I wasn't. ::sigh::

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Thanks AZ. so, what have you done for the oiling setup?

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Maytag

I don't want to hijack your thread, but here's a quick summary.
I lost a motor almost 2 years ago and ended up buying a used 3.2 motor with 30K miles. It ended up being a factory rebuilt with the big IMS bearing. The only thing I did to the bearing during install was remove the outer seal for better oil lubrication. I also installed a 2L Accusump in the center tunnel (yes it fits, but it's tight) because I didn't want it in the trunk. From what I know, here are the traditional quick things that can be done to reduce the oiling system starvation:

* Add oil volume. Most install a deep oil sump plate with 0.5 to 2L extra oil. I did not want to do this as my car was lowered. So my oil pan is stock. There is debate on how effective this is.

* Replace the factory plastic oil baffles with the EBS style improved metal baffles. I installed this in my stock oil sump plate.

You could also install a remote oil filter if you wanted. I did this so I could use synthetic media oil filters and racing filters. This also gives you the possibility of adding in thermostatic oil cooling, but I did not do this as the stock Boxster S oil cooler does a pretty good job.

Ideally, a dry-sump system would be the best, and I believe Cervelli has developed one, but I think it is pretty expensive still. So short of that, I believe that an oil accumulator will help tremendously (i.e. Accusump, but there are others). The idea is to have pressurized oil released into the oiling system when the oil pressure is low (such as when there is starvation at the oil pump pick up). So if you are not wheel to wheel racing and don't mind the extra 10-15 lbs or so, that is the way to go. It also adds another 1.5 quart or so of oil. Another thing to note is that I like to use filters that have the anti-drainback flapper. I also use a check valve. This is absolutely necessary since without at least one of these, you will loose the benefit of the Accusump.

I also have installed a toggle switch to manually turn on the front radiator fans to help reduce the coolant temp (and that reduces oil temp). I run the fans mostly during the entire session and then after the session for 5 minutes or so or until the oil temp drop below 200F (I have an oil temp and oil pressure gage setup).

You can pull up my YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI3kmU0mGhymRMFM1l-4uKw?view_as=subscriber) and I have documented various track day setups with data logging analysis to show that the best setup is to just run the Accusump with a remotely operated manual ball valve or an electrically operated solenoid valve that stays open during the track session. But for me, the issue was also that I wanted to also have the pre-oiling capability for reducing cold starting related wear, so I went with Canton's EPC valve, but I added a switch for the ability to bypass the pressure switch. This last step is crucial as the pressure switch and solenoid valve induce an unacceptable lag time in supplying oil under pressure. So I just wait until I start rolling onto the track and I then open the valve with a toggle switch. I have a ton of data showing a huge reduction in oil pressure drop spikes, effectively smoothing out the oil pressure.

I also keep my oil level at full or even 1 bar above full, but that varies depending on how full the Accusump is. Just make sure your AOS is working or get the Motorsports version. This entire season, I did not even have to use a full quart of oil to top off, so I know the motor is tight.


Anyways, if you are considering a similar setup, I can PM you the info.


Hope this helps, and hope your engine is not completely dead:(

That’s sad. I do know how it feels but at least mine had the decency to blow at the end of the season! Big job and big decisions ahead for you. good luck!

Nooooo!!!!! When you drove away it sure sounded like the exhaust bypass valve was the culprit.

I feel some responsibility in this from me shooting tire temps and seeing the tires could take more pushing and the subsequent decision to go faster.

If you can use any help at all in the subsequent work, I am more than willing to come down.

You're awesome.
I think the forum would be interested in what we saw with the tire temps, too. Wanna post some of that?
It was fun, feeling like we were learning something!

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So..... yeaaaahhhhh.
I removed the serpentine belt, just to eliminate the easy stuff.

It's not the easy stuff.

https://youtu.be/_RXBzNvhoGo


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Curious what Oil pressure mods if any you are running.
Knock sounds bad, hope you can get to the bottom of it without excessive expense.

And here I am, breaking the news to my wife. I try to include her in "discovery", as it eases the eventual conversation about options. Haha.

https://youtu.be/Jf30DNWAeU0


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Based on the pretty colors in the oil and filter, and what percentage of it is ferrous.... I'm guessing bearing shell went, and started on the crank. That 100% points to the theory about oil starvation being the impetus.

Here's a video of a lap that illustrates the -several- long, left sweepers on this track.

https://youtu.be/xQ8-Fs_pbp4

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Why did the video end when she asked you what all the metal in the filter and oil meant? Too much profanity and violence for YouTube?

Time to drop an Audi V8 in that thing!

Waddya know about that? Keeps all the gauges and functionality? Keeps the street-ability of the car?

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Bummer! I agree that motor is boat anchor status now. I watched the vid and didn't see any extreme banked sweepers or super high rpm. You kept it in the 4-6k range in the corners which usually protects the 986 motor pretty well.

Our Mitigation over 10 years on the PCA Time Trial circuit:

- 5w40 Castrol full synthetic and we watched oil temps, ending the session if things got to 240F

-Oil level matters and we made sure it was exactly topped before every session.

-We added the X51 pan but no other mechanical oiling mods. I didn't like the deep sump or the Accu-sump solutions.

- We stay off the rev limiter except down a long straight. High rpm in mid corner or zinging too high on heel-toe downshifts in a heavy braking zone has taken several motors according to the data logs.

200+ track days between two 986 BSX cars and no motors lost. Whew! :cheers:

Dan I watched the video and it looks like you had a couple of pretty high revving downshifts in a hard braking zone prior to a left turn... might not have helped. But other than that, seamed pretty innocent.

No, but it bolts up to the transaxle. I also believe that the engine is physically smaller than a LS small block, so there is less fabrication gymnastics involved.

Im much better at the "fabrication gymnastics" than I am with the electronics. That's my big concern.

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Did you run with the stock sump baffle?

Sustained high rpm runs will damage bearings. That's why I shift at 6K rpm.

no. I have the EBS baffle installed.

but it is the stock sump.

I feel like my motor is very strong between 6 and 7k..... and not so much if I'm short-shifting to 3k. So shifting at 6k seems like a fast way to go slower, haha. :confused:

Tell me about that? 'cuz I'm assuming you're not slow. :cheers:

The reality is that we are not out there to dawdle around. Hell if u shift it at 3500rpm, it may last forever but thata not really the point. If you drive it to the limit, you need to budget for motor replacements. At some point you have to weigh whether another platform is a better idea. Ive been looking at that right now and itd amazing how much racecar you can get for 30k. Not to say they dont have their own problems, but having to replace an m96 every 2 or 3 years is tiresome.

So, what are you considering?

I've driven a TON of cars on the racetrack over the years, (usually only a session or two in each one, not enough time to really push it) but not sure I've ever had as much fun as I do in the boxster.

I'll admit I've never driven a miata or a z.




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Miatas are really fun to drive, almost as good as a Boxster, but unless you do some mods (turbo, or an engine transplant), they aren't as fast as a Boxster. They are also more fun on the street. I think the Boxster is kind of ho hum for street driving, while the Miata is much less refined so you get a lot more sensory feedback that makes it more fun. But that same feedback can get tiresome on a trip. Miatas are also pretty bulletproof, so you won't have to worry about lunching your engine.

The great thing about a Boxster is they are mid-engine design, which makes them ideal on the track. Depending on your budget, I think that an awesome track car that is still street legal would be a Lotus Elise (Toyota engine, very reliable). I was at a track day where an Elise showed up, and it was blindingly quick. Quick not only in the turns, but down the straights as well, because of the power-to-weight ratio.

I've driven all the 2018 MX-5's including club sport options. They are fun to drive as long as you are not claustrophobic or driving by a 18 wheeler tractor trailer.

They are no comparision to a 986S

My problem is that I just can't seem to get excited about them. They don't stir me, in any way.

It's sorta like when people tell me that auto-cross is fun: I just sorta smile at them and immediately categorize that person's "fun" threshold.
It's the same with the Miata. haha.

If you are 5'8" or smaller, Miata and Lotus are a barrel of monkeys. Much taller than that and they get tight real fast.

For the lowest cost track days in a reliable car find a used Toyota Corolla and hit the Lemons circuit. A ton of fun.

For a dead nuts reliable Porsche, go 2009 and later. All the weaknesses of the 1998-2008 cars have been engineered out. :cool:

https://www.racingjunk.com/Other/183132911/1995-BMW-M3.html

My e36 m3 was the only other car that could match the boxsters balance and this one is well prepped

I also have the EBS with stock sump.

I am NOT fast compared to the cars in my run group. I'm a knife at a gun fight. They all have engine & suspension mods along with gumball qualifying tires. The mods I have are to tackle the OEM design flaws but keep it a reasonable street car that I can drive to & from events rather than trailer. I will be driving 600 mi to Indy in Aug for a 3 day DE and then drive back home.

I run street tires to eliminate the higher Gs of track tires. This reduces the chance of oiling issue but gives up a lot to the competition.

I shift at 6K rpm to avoid stretching rod bolts (which leads to rod bearings slipping). Not sure if this is an issue with the 986 but definitely is with the 987. Does this cost me? Yes, but max torque is around 5300 so going to the next gear and getting to max torque in the next gear isn't that costly.

Is it fun being passed all the time? No, but I still have my own kind of fun. I get enjoyment out of driving well technically. I get passed by guys who miss an apex by several feet but they have 200 more HP than I have and leave me in the dust on the next straight. He's probably having just as much fun as I am. In the end, neither of us "wins" the DE. My approach to DE is different than most and isn't for everyone.

I was asking as I like to gather data.

yeah... that's 'cuz -I- won. I WON THE DE. ME. :dance:


hahaha.

i told everyone over the weekend, that if I'm not having fun, I'm doing it wrong. So I appreciate your approach to it. it's what you enjoy. And yes, it'll be different for all.

You never know until you drive one. My street Miata was just as fun as my Boxster on the track, only it was a lot more worry free to thrash it.

I'm 6' 1", and fit in a Miata. Unfortunately, I've never had the chance to even sit in a Elise.

Well, with a little help and encouragement from forum member P_carferher, it looks like I might be back on the road sooner rather than later.
Donor car on the way!

PS: I'l have some nice parts for sale soon. ;-)

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Sorry to hear about this - losing an engine is always a total bummer.

All I can say is that I also lost an engine to a bearing failure but haven't had any problems with that issue since I went to the EBS baffle + 2 qt deep sump + horizontal baffle/windage tray. It basically creates a fixed cavity to hold oil for the long sweepers.

YMMV.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...psohn9vsr3.jpg

Hmmmm....... see, now, THAT makes a lot of sense to me.
Is that ALL EBS stuff? I know the baffle is, but the sump and the horizontal plate as well?

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I am about same height and went to the lotus factory and dealer in England. Tried an elise on for size. Just say it fit but getting in and out was like sliding in and out of a tuna can. Lol

EBS baffle. The deep sump and horizontal plate are from Pedro's TechnoSump or Bilt Racing (the two are exactly the same). Mine is a TechnoSump.

LN also offers everything in one kit: https://lnengineering.com/2qt-deep-sump-oil-pan-kit-inc-pickup-tube-extension-windage-tray-x51-baffle.html

even with that exact setup, I have severe pressure drops

Under what type of conditions? Still mainly in left hand sweepers? And how do YOU address that? Are you using an accusump, like AZ986?

y'all, THANK YOU for this ongoing dialogue. This is awesome, being able to learn from the collective this way..

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Under just about all conditions. Left hand turns, right hand turns, pressure consistently dips. I'm not using an accusump.

At this point i've given up on trying to prevent it. I run expensive ass oil (xp6 15w50 as I have an early variocam motor), change it every 2 events, run as much oil cooling as is possible on the factory set up (3rd radiator with a 997 S heat exchanger and fans on high), and hope for the best.

I should add that this phenomenon has been occurring since I installed the motor in August 2017 and there is never any metal in my oil/filter, so who knows what the deal is.

Really though I'm poking around moving up to a 987.2 Boxster S because worrying about oil pressure all the time is just plain no fun.

But did you blow an engine?

If it keeps the engine from blowing up, then I can live with the pressure drops. I'm not looking for perfection, I just want to get a reasonable life out of a motor (without spending the cost of a motor to do so).