Track Pads Questions
 

I've been researching pads for my '02 base Boxster, and have some questions for those of you who track your cars. I do three or four track days per year, usually at SCCA Track Night in America events, because they are cheap (but you never know what the other drivers will be like; it's the wild, wild west at those events). That means 60 minutes of track time per event.

I currently run EBC Yellows, which I've come to find are unsuitable pads, as once they get hot, you get a terrible shuddering at all the wheels. It's my experience that they don't fade, because you can't brake hard enough to really test them without the car shaking so badly that it's very worrisome.

I would consider myself an advanced driver, since I have lots of years of racing experience. In a normal track day, the only cars that pass me in the advanced group are much faster cars (Mustang Cobra GT350s, turbo'ed Miata's, later model 911s, those damned WRX's) that usually are using R-compound tires. For the upcoming year I've acquired another set of wheels that I'll be running Hankook RS4's on. My aim is to just have a good time and be able to give myself and the car a decent workout.

My car has a ROW M030 springs and shocks, with as aggressive an alignment as you can get with stock suspension components. I want the car to remain a pleasant street driver, with track duty not being it's primary mission.

From my research, I've narrowed my choices down to Pagid (Orange, Yellow, or Blacks), or Raybestos ST 43 or 41s. I'd like to use the PFC 08 pads, but they aren't available for base Boxster brakes. Since I'll probably also run the pads for street use, I want something that works okay at regular temps and isn't terribly noisy or dusty, but I know that with track pads, it's a real compromise.

From what I've read, the Hawk track compounds are very hard on rotors for street use, so that is why I'm not looking at those.

What say the 986Forum mind-hive? Which color Pagids do you find the best? Which Raybestos compound is favored? The Raybestos are less expensive, but there isn't a huge difference in price. If you have any other reasonable suggestions, I'd like to hear them!

I'm subscribing here, because I'll be looking at the same thing shortly.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I have used Pagid Orange. Never have had a problem at the track. A litte noisy sometimes, not too bad.

In my experience, Pagid are pretty much the default pad for Spec Boxster, and there are few if any complaints. Most SPB racers I know have gravitated to some combination of Yellow and/or Black (or even Red) depending on preference of feel and effective bias.

Given that you are talking about a few track days/hours per year, Orange will work. I ran them on my car when it was a street + track car for years (eventually switched to Yellow/Black for racing). They'll be noisier on the street than stock pads, but you'll get used to it. For HPDE, Orange is a reasonable choice. For a car that is driven on the street, Orange may be preferable to Yellow and Black due to less rotor wear and working better at lower temperatures.

My thoughts...

If you want a street pad that will also work for the track, then I'd recommend EBC Yellow. They won't make any noise on the street but may not hold up if you are truly running front of the pack Spec Boxster lap times. They are more affordable than Pagid. They might work well if you're only doing four track days per year and the rest of the driving is on the street.

If you want a track pad that will also work for the street, then as Trygve suggests, I'd also recommend Pagid Orange. That is what I currently run on my Spec Boxster that is driven on the street. The pads make some noise but they don't squeal like an 18-wheeler at every stop sign. These pads will provide great track performance but are more expensive.

To sum up:
Street friendly, affordable, good on the track: EBC Yellow
Great track performance, some noise on the street, but more expensive: Pagid Orange

As I mentioned in my original post, I've been using EBC Yellows, but found them to be terrible on the track. When they get hot, they cause a terrible juddering at each corner. Reading of other's experiences on this forum, I know that I'm not alone in experiencing that. They seem to work okay up to 7/10ths driving, but if you go past that, no thanks.

Sorry to hear that. I have gone through at least 10 sets of EBC Yellow and never had that experience (including racing 3 full season's on them). But I completely understand why you wouldn't want to use them again.

But for others reading this thread at a later date, they might want to give the EBC Yellows a try before jumping to a full race pad like the Pagid's.

That's interesting. I wonder what the differences are in why they worked for you, but not me? I tried new rotors, and that made no difference. I also bedded them in according to EBC's directions.

In fact, I've tried green, red, and yellow EBCs; green faded easily (no surprise), and both reds and yellow gave me the shuddering. That's why I'm going to try something else.


Anyone here had experience with the Porterfield RS4s?

I would agree.

I have been running EBC Yellows for a couple of seasons of tracking and not had any shuddering issues

I used EBC yellow last season for HPDE's. I had some mild shuddering when they'd start to get hot, but of more concern to me was the fade. Around lap 5 of each session the brakes would start to feel like wood. Very low initial bite and even less as I'd get into them deeper. I was always forced to take an "easy lap" to cool them off so they'd work again.

I'm running gt3 cooling "ducts" and motul rbf600 fluid. (Still rubber hoses, though)

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Get pads with complimentary compounds and swap out the fronts when you put on the other set of wheels. So get some Pagid Orange for the front and rear and swap out to Yellow for the track on the fronts only. If you don't do a lot of track days - this works well.

I have an 02 S and I'm looking for track pads as well. My EBC yellows wear out very quickly, especially the front. I'm going to get a set of PFC 08s after a lot of deliberation. I now run in the DE4 groups and push the car a decent amount. How about the EBC oranges? I don't know about the others.

Deleted, sorry posted in the wrong thread.

What seat and harness setup are you talking about?
I've read and re-read the thread... I don't see ANYTHING about a seat and harness.... this thread is about brake pads.

What the.... ???? SUNNUVA>.....

FWIW, rotor judder is generally from uneven hot pad transfer to the rotors. This is usually caused by failing to take a nice easy cool down lap or an easy drive down paddock row to cool the rotors down before stopping the car. I had this problem with Pagid Yellows and it got really bad but in hindsight, it was probably my cool down habits, not the pads fault. I cool down for at least 2 miles now and have never had another problem.

The best high heat pads I have used are Raybestos ST-43 custom cut from Porterfield. Excellent modulation, heat management, and they last 20+ track days. I have run these pads for about 7 years now and love them. Downside: They squeal like a school bus when cold.

I have a Boxster non S 2004. I want to get new brake pads and new plain rotors. My car is mostly a street car and sometimes i use it as my daily driver. I'm planning next year to start to do two or three track days per year and have fun. Do some aggressive laps and cool laps but not anything like time attack or competition or unlike the OP 60 minutes of track time.

In my case will the EBC Yellows be fine or maybe get the Reds? I do not want a lot of squeal. I can tolerate a little bit of squeal but prefer no squeal. I will get the shim or damping plates my car do not have them, it has the stock pads. Was thinking of getting the Akebono pads for the street and maybe Yellows for the front but honestly i would prefer 1 set of pads.

If you want primarily a road pad that can take some extra heat then look at the Ferodo DS2500 or DS1.11

Judder can also occur when you have two incompatible brake compounds on the same rotor. Ceramic and metallic compounds don't mix well and some metallics don't work well together either.

I had been using EBC reds, got the shuddering, and then switched to the yellows. I was very careful to bed the pads according to EBCs instructions, but on the second lap of my first session the shudder returned. If I backed off for a lap to cool the brakes, they felt fine. Start using the brakes hard again, and the shudder started back up. It was so bad that I couldn't try to ignore it; it felt like I was going to break something if I persisted with it vibrating that badly.

I've got many years of racing experience, and have bedded new brakes many, many times, so I'm confident that I'm not doing it wrong. At one time I raced a first generation RX7 that was very fast in a straight line, but the car had really small brakes for it's performance, so I learned to manage the brakes. Our races were half an hour long, so if you managed things correctly, you'd have brakes for the whole race. :rolleyes: If you tried to outbrake another car, then the brakes were done. The best brakes I found were the Porterfield RS4's - the fronts were good for one race, the rears were good for two races. So it's really frustrating for me that I have a car with relatively big brakes that is quite a bit slower than the old RX7, but I haven't been able to use those brakes.

I use Pagid yellow RSL29 front and rear on my 04 Boxster S. Its a track only car but see no reason the pads wouldn't work on the street. They work well cold, better when hot. I did 5 PCA race weekends this year and one set lasted 4 weekends. Before racing, I got more than a full season per set driving in the advanced drivers ed group.

I know the pagids are expensive, but you've likely wasted more $$ testing/throwing away cheap pads up to this point.

Anyone familiar with PFC 08s? So I installed a set of PFC 08s a month ago. I did not see any bed in procedure for them. I ran them fresh on the first session DE4 and they were shuddering. On session 2, they behaved better. So now I am using the car for weekend duty and the pads are screetching very loudly at slow speeds. Will it always be like that or is this just a wear-in phase?

I have been fan of EBC yellow, but did just have a problem

I was experiencing soft pedal, even when cold. The pads were pretty new, just 1 weekend on them.

Flushed the system 3 times, so I was pretty sure there was no air in the system. The pedal was still soft.

I swapped in some factory pads and the pedal was rock hard. Put the yellows back in and soft pedal. The pads while still having over 75% life left were cooked and rock hard

Per the suggestion from my mechanic, I got some Hawk DTC-60's. Put them in, rock hard pedal.

Just came back from a track weekend with my son also driving and the DTC-60's were spectacular. I'm not gonna use the EBC Yellow anymore

YMMV

Any squeal on the way home?

Naw, quite as a mouse sitting on my trailer :rolleyes:

actually they didn't squeal at all even when cold

Also the DTC-60'S hardly showed any wear at all and we ran around 100 laps (approx 270 miles)

I shopped around a bit and then went to Summit Racing as they match any price and have fast delivery The set for both axles was ~$400.

From everything I've read, it sounded like PFC 08's would be my best choice, but I thought that they didn't make those for the 2.7 986s. It turns out that they do indeed make 08s for my car, and I found them at Apex Performance for less than I could find the Pagid Oranges (my third choice) or Raybestos RT43 (my second choice). From what I've read on this and other forums, you can't go wrong with any of those choices (PFC, Pagid, or Raybestos).

I've placed my order for the 08s, so I will be reporting on my findings. Seeing as how it's February and track season doesn't start for several months here in the Pacific North West, it'll be a while before I'll have anything to report.

Thanks for everyone's input!

I know that I'm late to this party, but on my 986BS I used:
CarboTech 917 XP8 compound fronts and
CarboTech 738 XP10 rears.
I continued to track CarboTech's on my 981BS and I'm still very happy with them.

I agree the Pagid Yellow and Pagid black are much better on the track. They last me about 2 times as long and don't fade. You will notice some squeal when they aren't hot

I switched to these brakes a week ago, in preparation for today's DE with PCA.

I gotta say, they're freaking AWESOME! Yes..... embarrassing on the street, what with the howl and squeal. But on the track, they're inspiring.

However:
I boiled the motul rbf600 fluid. Yeah..... I know.
Had to do a paddock bleed (thanks MaxD!). The next session I tried to brake harder, for less time. The brakes lasted, but I wasn't as smooth. I'll need to keep improving.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Ok so I have used the PFC 08s for a full season about 10 events.
Not going back to EBC Yellow. For one, wear is almost negligeable. The cold to hot performance also not a lot. Initial break bite a little less but modulation is excellent.
They cost almost twice as much but will likely last 4 times longer.
Also they are not.wearing the rotors down much.
They do squeal both hot and cold. Only drawback.

So PFC 08 it will be for.a.while...

I haven't done any updates on this thread, but I did switch to the PFC 08s. I tried to bed them in at least a little bit on the street, and they squealed like the school bus from hell.

The first track session, they juddered terribly once they got hot, but towards the end of the session they smoothed out a bit, so I was hoping that everything would be fine. The second session, they worked great! I've run four more track sessions since then without any judder issues at all. Now they are mostly quiet on the street.

My second track day was at Pacific Raceway, which is notoriously hard on brakes. I did get some fade, but they would come right back if you took it easy for half a lap. Overall, they are much better than any of the EBCs I've run. So far I'm pleased!

Agreed. I just moved from a C4S with PFC 08s which squealed like a school bus.
On the boxster I also got the juddering on my first session, but after that they ran smooth and they aren't squealing at all hot or cold. My wife is excited, and I don't have to switch the brake pads back to stock for my wife in between track days if they stay quiet :)

You were probubly getting that judder because the was old pad compound on the rotors. Once it got burned off after a few laps and the new compound was burned on all was good

Hi Folks,

Old thread (Sorry, I know) but looking to do a touch point to get a consensus after 2 years whether Pagid Orange pads are still a good compromise for a street and track/HPDE application. Thanks!

The general "consensus" is compromise equals loosing on both sides of the coin - always.

Pads are so stinking simple to swap in/out on 9x6 and 9x7 platforms you should keep street pads for street and get a dedicated set of track pads like PFC for DE. Not to mention you WILL bleed your brakes before each DE and will therefore already be "in there".

Brakes are one of two things one shouldn't compromise on... ESPECIALLY for HPDE in any run group above novice.

Good luck :)

Thanks, Burg Boxster. But I should be open and up front that i am NEW to HPDE. I went to a track day once on my factory pads and I "think "they were ok. I'm not sure if I can get away with a few track day session with stock pads or if I should get a dedicated set.

If you are going to start running HPDEs regularly definitely get track pads. Pagid orange are a good track pad. I have run them on the street and they are not that noisy. That said, they are not quiet low dust street compounds.

As Burg points out it is not that hard to change pads and it is something you should learn to do. Bleeding brakes is the other thing to learn if you haven't done it. You will want to change out you brake fluid to something with a higher boiling point. ATE, Motul and SRF (what I run) all work well. Bleeding is something you will do at a minimum annually.

The oranges are a good starting point. Everyone has an opinion about what are the best pads. It largely ends up being preference. The best thing about brake pads is they wear out and if you didn't like them get new ones in a different compound or from another manufacture.

Also keep an eye on you rotors - they are consumables too. Aggressive pads with lots of metal in them wear rotors quite quickly. The pagids are relatively rotor friendly.

Agree and likewise somewhat disagree ;) ...

Bleeding/flushing is SUPER easy and one SHOULD learn how to DIY. Three main reasons why:

1. it's probably the cheapest DE 'insurance' you can buy (and a v good habit to get into)
2. you might need to do so AT a track some day (maybe Sat night before Sun) - wanna be scrounging pits Sat after track goes cold when everyone else is having a brewski asking for anyone who has a power bleeder and or knows what they are doing. Everyone is always willing to help which is great but......
3. most dealers/shops charge ~2+ hrs labor (think $250-$450+) when honestly it costs ~ $30-75/liter (only one needed) for DOT 4 fluid and $75 one time for a power bleeder.

Bleeding needs done before EVERY track event (it's on most Event Inspection Forms - PCA especially). Period, end of story UNLESS using SRF or RBF. Over the years I cannot tell you how many incidents I have seen occur when afterwards a driver said "I thought I could get one more day before I had to bleed again".

Good luck :)

I always bleed the brakes before every event. Easy to do when changing to the Pagid Track Pads.

To add to or reiterate some of the sage advice already given...

It takes longer to get your 986 or 987 up on jack stands and the tires off than it takes to replace pads. It's a very easy process on these models (and 911 variants). IF you're going to be doing multiple DEs per yr, you can zip tie the wear sensors away from the pads since you'll be "in there" to monitor the wear. Unless you bring a spare set to the track, NEVER start a DE if your pads are less than 50%. You don't want to go home early b/c you've run out of pad.

As you progress up the run group ladder, you'll prob wear out OEM pads in a weekend as your driving becomes more agressive. OEMs will work (for a w/e) but they were also designed for quiet performance on the street. You'll need to find the right pad, whether it's a street / track pad up to a strictly track pad. If you go with a street / track pad, you give up a bit of bite but have lower dust and less rotor deterioration. Upper level pure track pads will give you plenty of bite (when warm) but will be dusty, noisy, and chew up your rotors. Only you can decide what works for you on the track and your wallet. Your home track may be tough on brakes or it might be easy on them - every track is different so it becomes difficult for us to recommend the perfect solution (but we'll try). Ask around the paddock what others are using and what are the pluses and minuses (there will be both). Just remember, everyone makes their own decision on cost vs performance and you need to figure out what works for you.

When replacing pads (either going street to track or back from track to street), bed the pads in. I do 20-60-20mph runs 10 times. You should smell your brakes by the end. Others will have their fav way to bed them in.

Defn learn how to bleed your brakes yourself. There are several good tools avail to allow you to do it by yourself. Buy one. Many use Motive, myself included.

One point of clarification on PCA tech.

From the latest national minimum standard tech form:

Local regions may require a brake system bleed prior to all events, this is just a minimum standard.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bleeding your brakes before every event. It also allows you to take a look at your pads (inners can wear at a different rate sometimes) and suspension as well.

Agree on the Motive bleeder - just don't stick fluid it, use it only as a pressure source.