high labor for water pump/thermostat?

[bobaachaar]

The water pump and thermostat on my '04 986s 6-speed failed about a week ago. I had it replaced at a shop specializing in foreign cars, and they charged me 5.2 hours of labor for the job. At 180/hr labor, plus parts, it came out to nearly $1600 for the job. That seems to be a lot of labor hours for a water pump and thermostat (as well as a coolant flush), but I'm not sure. Did I get scammed?

[Frodo]

Seems pretty steep to me. The "Porsche tax" rears its ugly head.

These are regular maintenance items—IIRC, I've heard it recommended that they be replaced every 3years. I don't do it that often by any means, but it apparently can be bad if you let them go until they fail and you get little pieces of impeller blade material floating around in your cooling system. Obviously I don't know your experience level, but if you're at all inclined, this isn't a terribly difficult DIY. Plenty of youtube vids showing how.

[78F350]

That's more than I'd expect, but not unreasonable if you add parts and coolant in with a full mark-up price. Water pump and thermostat with a "Porsche" stamp plus a couple gallons of virgin unicorn blood to refill the cooling system.
As long as they used top end parts, I'd say it's acceptable. If they substituted cheap parts and coolant, I'd complain.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

The water pump and thermostat on my '04 986s 6-speed failed about a week ago. I had it replaced at a shop specializing in foreign cars, and they charged me 5.2 hours of labor for the job. At 180/hr labor, plus parts, it came out to nearly $1600 for the job. That seems to be a lot of labor hours for a water pump and thermostat (as well as a coolant flush), but I'm not sure. Did I get scammed?

If they used factory pump and coolant, no.

[Frodo]

Yeah, well you guys would know better than me.

I guess what surprised me was the 5.2 hrs. To me it's not seemed like that time-consuming a job.

And, I'm probably still thinking in pre-inflationary terms, too. EVERYTHING has gotten crazy expensive anymore.

[blue62]

I think most shops charge according to what is called a "Flat rate" book.
It gives average times it takes to do a job. ....Such as coolant change or brakes or what ever.
So the 5.2 hours probably comes from the flat rate book.
They then charge their rate at those hours.

JFP in PA is probably familiar with it and could explain it much better then I.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by blue62

I think most shops charge according to what is called a "Flat rate" book.
It gives average times it takes to do a job. ....Such as coolant change or brakes or what ever.
So the 5.2 hours probably comes from the flat rate book.
They then charge their rate at those hours.

JFP in PA is probably familiar with it and could explain it much better then I.

You are correct; all shops, independents or dealers, work from what is called the flat rate or "book value" to estimate what time it should take to do any repair. Years ago, the flat rate was actually a printed book, but like everything else, it is now an online subscription system. The shop then multiplies their hourly rate times that value to determine the labor charge, then add in parts and any taxes or disposal fees, and that is your bill.

As labor rates and parts have a geographical content, there are several free online estimators (NAPA has one, as does RepairPal) that allows you to input your location, car year and model, and then select what type of work is to be done; and it will give you an estimate range of what to expect. I just ran a 2001 Boxster thru RepairPal at my location for a water pump replacement, and it came back with a range of $1,673 to $1,904 (independent to dealer) as an example. So you can work up your own estimates of what to expect that are reasonably accurate.

[Benitom]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

The water pump and thermostat on my '04 986s 6-speed failed about a week ago. I had it replaced at a shop specializing in foreign cars, and they charged me 5.2 hours of labor for the job. At 180/hr labor, plus parts, it came out to nearly $1600 for the job. That seems to be a lot of labor hours for a water pump and thermostat (as well as a coolant flush), but I'm not sure. Did I get scammed?

Living in California that sounds about right to me

[bobaachaar]

damn. i know they used OEM coolant, because i watched him put it in. i also know that the original water pump has a plastic impeller, and 2 of the blades were broken. mechanic said that they're still somewhere in the system, but that it shouldn't be a problem.

i'm not the most handy person in the world, but i would have done the job myself if i had a garage.

live and learn i guess. also yes, i am in the bay area

[bobaachaar]

didn't specify, the brass one is the new one that he put in. don't think it's OEM but the impeller is a more durable material.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

didn't specify, the brass one is the new one that he put in. don't think it's OEM but the impeller is a more durable material.

Careful what you wish for..

Common wisdom around here is that "more durable" impeller fins end up chewing away at things you don't want chewed up if/when the pump eventually fails. Recommendations seem to be to avoid them. Should be functional, I would think, but this is probably an item you'd want to preventatively replace before it even thinks about failing..

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

didn't specify, the brass one is the new one that he put in. don't think it's OEM but the impeller is a more durable material.

Mistake. The factory impeller is plastic for a reason: all pumps wear and begin to wobble, when they do, the plastic impeller hits the rear of the pump housing and breaks off, but the metal impeller starts grinding away the rear of the housing, which is part of the engine case, filling the system with metal filings and increasing the distance between the impeller and the case to the point it reduces coolant flow. This damage cannot be repaired, and why the factory uses composite impeller pumps.............

[bobaachaar]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Mistake. The factory impeller is plastic for a reason: all pumps wear and begin to wobble, when they do, the plastic impeller hits the rear of the pump housing and breaks off, but the metal impeller starts grinding away the rear of the housing, which is part of the engine case, filling the system with metal filings and increasing the distance between the impeller and the case to the point it reduces coolant flow. This damage cannot be repaired, and why the factory uses composite impeller pumps.............

what do i do? the mechanic replaced it with brass without asking which one i wanted. do i go back and ask to replace with oem?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

what do i do? the mechanic replaced it with brass without asking which one i wanted. do i go back and ask to replace with oem?

That is totally your call, I am only telling what I know from years of working on customer's cars, seeing what works and what doesn't, and communicating with Porsche engineers. How you proceed is up to you............

[bobaachaar]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

That is totally your call, I am only telling what I know from years of working on customer's cars, seeing what works and what doesn't, and communicating with Porsche engineers. How you proceed is up to you............

do you think if i leave it and replace it after 40-50k miles it should be fine?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by bobaachaar

do you think if i leave it and replace it after 40-50k miles it should be fine?

No idea. But this is what kind of damage metal impellers cause when the blades hit the case:

[Gilles]

Sorry to hear this bobaachaar, but unless your mechanic accepts replacing the pump with the right one.. I would offer buying the OEM pump and he puts the labor to replace (after all it was his fault..)

If this does not work out, perhaps now this is the time to learn to replace your water pump with the correct one, as long as you save the new precious coolant your additional cost would be for the OEM water pump.
Replacing the water pump is not complicated as long as you take your time, there are plenty to DYI advise on this forum.

I would volunteer to help you but Orange County is a long way from San Francisco.. perhaps another member that lives closer?
.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Gilles

Sorry to hear this bobaachaar, but unless your mechanic accepts replacing the pump with the right one.. I would offer buying the OEM pump and he puts the labor to replace (after all it was his fault..)
.

The problem here is that—presumably—the pump he installed is working just fine. Unless there was some sort of agreement that a specific type of water pump be used, I’m thinking this is gonna be a tough assignment.

Concepts like his not having used “the correct one” and the problem (if the mechanic is even willing to concede there is a problem) is “his fault” may not go over well. But I could be wrong, and I suppose it’s worth a try.

I’d say give it a shot. If that doesn’t work, at a minimum ask the guy what brand of pump he used, and what the typical lifespan of that replacement tends to be. Then make sure you at least replace it well before that time has run.

[Wret]

My own anecdotal evidence is that the water pump is the most frequent failure and fairly predictable. I've replaced 4, 2 myself and 2 by my mechanic, averaging about 1 every 50000 miles. Pretty sure a couple of them have been with metal impellers. Point being that a failing pump with a metal impeller doesn’t necessarily spell doom for the motor. That said, I’m more aware of the issue and would choose a plastic impeller in the future.

The pump surprisingly easy to replace given its location. I'd recommend to anyone planning to have the car a few years to keep one on the shelf and replace it yourself.

[JZeke]

Mechanic probably came from BMW years ago, where plastic impellers would lunch the entire E36 engine. Good to know this engine isn't susceptible to that sort of failure.