Door speaker recommendations?

[KevinH1990]

I appreciate the information this thread has produced. I am leaning towards adding the MB Quart na2-500.5 amplifier that Stl986 recommended. What do you think about usig it to drive the door speakers from the subwoofer output of my head unit? I think that would allow me the most control over bass response.

I'd like to see some pictures of Bran's minisub installation. Ideally, I'd like to hear it. Unfortunately, that would require finding someone local with a similar system.

For now, I am not as concerned about damaging my system as I was a few nights ago. dghii's post piqued my curiosity. I have added dash and rear speakers to my system without thoroughly researching the potential incompatibilities. Although nothing bad has happened there is always a chance that my luck will run out. I have also, as dghii pointed out, not seen posts from anyone who destroyed their system by installing 4-ohm speakers. (Although it is possible they were too embarrassed to admit it.) I also thought that in the limited time I listened to the system that the new speakers sounded better. In the interest of science, I decided to check the actual resistance of the OEM speakers.



Unless I'm not using my multi meter correctly, the OEM speakers are actually 4-ohm speakers even though they are clearly marked as 2-ohm speakers.



I am not able to check the actual resistance of the door speakers I installed because I don't feel up to the task of removing them from the car.

Right now, my thought process is that the system was safely driving 4-ohm speakers before I installed the new door speakers, and I can afford to wait a while upgrade with an amplifier.

[Stl-986]

If you go with that amp, the sub output from it should go to the doors.

Now you have to be careful though cause your head unit needs to have 6 rca outputs on it if you want to use a 5 channel amp or 4 channel & a separate sub amp. Of course you could also just use Y cables but it is noticeable difference when you do.

Any time I do a system my #1 priority is to keep things looking as stock as possible, especially in a convertible. Things are less likely to attract unwanted attention if something looks like factory. Those little active sub boxes from someone like Alpine are nice but unless you hind them well...they will attract danger. Almost no room under the seats so it's behind a seat (which isn't a good place anyway) or up in the foot well on these cars. Will have better sound there, but that means feet near a box/speaker.

The next best option is to get the Bose speaker tray and replace the 2 ohm subs in there with something else along with the 3.5" speakers on each side. Requires more power obviously, but this is one of the best setups to have in my opinion.

[KevinH1990]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

If you go with that amp, the sub output from it should go to the doors.

Now you have to be careful though cause your head unit needs to have 6 rca outputs on it if you want to use a 5 channel amp or 4 channel & a separate sub amp. Of course you could also just use Y cables but it is noticeable difference when you do.

According to the installation manual for my AVIC-Z140BH https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Car/AVIC-Z140BH_InstallationManual011612.pdf I have a left and right subwoofer output. It appears that I am in good shape for adding an amp to power two woofers.

I think I will install the wiring (two RCA cables and splice into the amp turn on wire) when I fix the vent foam issue next weekend. (I checked the video on accessing the dampers through the cowl, but it looks I would risk breaking a lot of potentially brittle plastic parts.). Then I will hint about the amplifier for a Father’s Day gift.

[BRAN]

It is possible to install the mini-sub in the "non-existing" gloves compartment. Best way to access that area is to deinstall the passenger airbag. I took the loooooong way round and cut a whole into the lower dash and used a mesh for better air & sound flow. But I am pretty sure, you can do without that, soundwise. I used strong cable binders to secure the sub in its spot. Additionally, I ran a separate power cable to the battery as it is recommended that way. I am mega convinced of my solution. An invisible installation is absolutely possible, although it is kind of tight. So far my base vibes didn't trigger the airbag to pop...
I am (still) preparing my lower dash (both sides of course) to either upholster that area in cocoa leather or spray paint it in seal gray. That older picture gives a good impression of the spot I used.
There is no way to install a mini sub underneath the seat, I've checked the whole interwebs for available mini-subs...Kennwood KSC-SW11 was the best bet for my attempt.

PIONEER: SPH-BT20 DAB IOS single DIN 4x50 watts (MOSFET-Amp & 31-Band Equalizer via app)
Dash speakers: Infinity REF-4002CFX-2 4" 2-Way Reference X Series Coax speakers (10cm, 105 watts, 35 watts RMS, 3 Ohm)
Door speakers: JBL GTO 6528 2-Way Coax speakers (16,5 cm, 180 watts, 60 watts RMS, 2 Ohm)
Kenwood: KSC-SW11 active subwoofer (1x 150 watts, 4 Ohm)

just for the grins and giggles

[KevinH1990]

Thank you for posting the picture. That is a tidy installation. Most people wouldn't notice the sub, or if they did see it, they would assume it was stock.

By the way, I've never seen that wood trim piece on the dash before. I'm considering removing my basic black piece and painting it to match my console which is silver.

[Stl-986]

Rule of thumb is to have your amp within 10% of the rms of your speakers or having your amp less powerful then your speakers. This is so that you dont blow the speakers. For subs...this is hardly ever followed though, but it is a good practice.

Using 2 amps is perfectly acceptable. One amp for the speakers & 1 for the sub...or even 2 amps for the subs depending on setup & car.

Options really are limitless and come down to how much wiring you want to do. On some cars wiring is easy (Jeep wranglers for instance). Others...like the 986, it's a royal pain. I always prefer to run all new wires to everything using better gauge wires. On these cars though the ends just dont justify the means. Meaning running new speaker wires to the doors just isn't worth it. Running wire for the rear speaker tray is easy though and I always use a disconnect setup there so that it can be removed. On the cheap end you can just use spade connectors...which I dont recommend or get any 4/6 wire disconnect setup like these: https://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-Electrical-Connector-Terminals-Assortment/dp/B0912NWT6H

I will typically run 6 shielded twisted wire rca cables along with a turn on wire from the head unit to the amp(s). The amp(s) I will install in the front trunk. I'll mount them in the same spot as the OEM amp and/or where the CD charger went. Getting some sheet metal from any hardware store you can bend/cut a bracket to mount it.

[Stl-986]

Bran - Those JBL speakers are 2ohm...not 3. The PEAK at 180w but are 60w RMS. (https://www.adamrayner.net/jbl-gto-6528-coaxial-loudspeakers/)

When sizing speakers/amps/HU....always...always go by RMS not Peak. You want room for your speakers to get more power before the peak.

The nice thing about active subs is that they are an all in 1 solution. Sub, amp & box. Usually a downfire but they do have them in a ported setup. This is also a downsize as they are a Jack of all and Master of none. They really are the only solution to use in these cars unless you use the door panel & the Bose rear tray.

One other thing is to try and not use the line level outputs from a HU into an amp unless there are no other options. RCA will always be better quality & better voltage. Also watch the pre-amp output voltage. Some 1 din units only do 2v out vs 4v. Again, you want to match what you are hooking up to.

Everything will work if you mismatch things like speaker Ohm, pre-amp output voltage, etc....it just wont sound as good compared when things are matched correctly. And you do run the risk of 1 thing over loading another.

Not matching Ohm's is the biggest mistake people make. And you CAN blow your speakers or amp if you dont. Ask any electrical engineer or audio guy and they will tell you the same thing. Yes it can work...but for how long is the answer you will get. It's simple Ohm's law.

[BRAN]

Thank you for your spot on advice, Stl-986.

You are correct the JBL GTO 6528 are 2 Ohm (6529 are 3 Ohm). The infinity speakers are even sold as "build like 4 Ohm speakers due to cable and connectors" which will result in 4 Ohm.
In my case Pioneer doesn't even recommend using 2 or 3 Ohm speakers, but 4 or 8 Ohm speakers.
PROBLEM over time: HU upgrades!
I had many different HUs beforehand with 2 Ohm HAES and got the JBL 2 Ohm speakers later.
I noticed, that my latest PIONEER HU would get "pretty" warm, with my 2 and 3 Ohm speaker setup only. But after using an active sub with a sub RCA (can't find any infos on Volt output), the HU is way more relaxed and less warm, additionally I use pioneer's equalizer app to adjust each speakers input setup.
Long term I should and probably will switch to an overall 4 Ohm set-up. I just need to find the proper speaker sizes, which can be pretty annoying, as far as I remember.
For now the setup seems to work pretty okay due to the heavy help of the active sub.

@KevinH1990: Yep, I think I ordered that long wodden trim from Porsche directly (or was it sold on ebay as brandnew?), the other two were made by a specialist.

[Stl-986]

Yup, this is all a very slippery slope.

Usually 8ohm setups are in home audio, dont see much in mobile audio until you get to the really high end stuff like competition.

You will have better luck with getting ohm stuff then we will in the states. Another thing US mfg have decided to be different about compared to the rest of the world.

This is why I always walk people through on determining their budget, then their needs/wants and then after that looking to see what can be done in that budget & get their want list. I have worked with some that wanted wireless android auto but didnt have the budget for a $800 HU on top of all their speaker/amp & wiring. I also try to tell people to not even bother with any nav systems...use your phone it will be updated where your HU wont after a year or 2.

I also push people hard to keep in mind down the road & resale. Everyone will eventually sell the car at some point and should keep in mind the value of doing anything custom. Some listen, some dont. I used to do competition audio and would go all the way including custom fiberglass sub boxes/panels made to the specific car. Now I just dont even go that far. Just put in what will sound decent. Some of my cars I dont even bother to change anything from factory anymore.

Whatever you do though....dont worry about Pretty or Sounds good until your car is running & driving. No sense putting $1500k audio into a car that sits on jack stands in the garage for a year while you are rebuilding it.

[dghii]

“Not matching Ohm's is the biggest mistake people make. And you CAN blow your speakers or amp if you dont. Ask any electrical engineer or audio guy and they will tell you the same thing. Yes it can work...but for how long is the answer you will get. It's simple Ohm's law.”

True, but…success/failure depends on which direction you are going with impedance. Going from 2 ohm soakers to 4 ohm will not hurt a thing. You may not have optimized your system but nothing will fry with 4 ohms that wouldn’t have fried with 2 ohms.
Going other direction is a different story….
An amp rated for 4 ohm load driving loads less than 4 ohms will run hotter and most likely cut off (protection mode) until it cools.

It is ohms law. Power = current ^2 time’s impedance.
At 100watts. an amp will need to deliver over 7 amps into 2 ohms while only needing 5 amps to deliver same power into 4 ohms. Hence, an amp rated for two ohm loads will ‘coast’ with 4 ohm loads.

An amp rated for 4 ohm loads May struggle to deliver the extra current to a 2 ohm load.

Understand also that you’ll never listen to your car stereo at anywhere near 100 watts continuous. It’s too dang loud! Heck 1-2 watts is a decent volume in a closed car (or a decently sized room).
Low frequency transients require additional power but just for moments at a time.

At the end of the day, it’s a ragtop…not a concert hall!

[Radman]

Originally Posted by BRAN

I did my upgrade from a basic 2 HAES speaker setup to a 4 speakers + Sub setup.
The absolutely biggest difference made the KENWOOD KSC-SW11 active 150W Mini-Sub. It has the power and the punch that I can now effortlessly listen to music while driving with top down or at higher speeds. My 4 speaker setup alone just could not handle those conditions in a decent way.

My recommendation to everyone wanting to upgrade their sound system: Get an active Mini-Sub.

+1. I swapped out all the speakers and while there was an improvement it really lacked low end punch. I added an MB Quartz powered sub behind the passenger seat and it's made all the difference in the world.

[KevinH1990]

I drove the car for about an hour and a half today. Here are my observations:

1. The 6 X 40 Haes amp was slightly warm to the touch, but there was no indication it was overheating.
2. I think the sound is noticeably better. I appreciate that this is a subjective evaluation performed without the benefit of "A-B" testing where I can directly compare the OEM speakers versus my replacement.
3. Using the Haes amp limits my ability to fine tune the sound. The information I've been able to find indicates that the crossover for the door channels is 50 hertz and there is no way to adjust the gain on the amp.
4. I am seriously considering adding a 2-channel amp with 100 watts of power per channel. This would allow me to run the door speakers off the subwoofer channels on my head unit and set the gain and cross over frequencies. I am not in a rush on this because I don't think I am damaging anything by using the Haes amp. When I work on the foam issue and remove the head unit I will run RCA cables and an amp turn on wire to the front trunk This will allow me to add an amp without taking the dash apart again.

[Stl-986]

Wait a sec...Do you have the factory amp hooked up to your Avic? If so I'm assuming you are using one of the wiring kits for that.

You wont be able to really do anything with the eq settings. You can make changes on your Avic but it really wont matter with that factory amp in the mix.

In all honesty...you would be better just running the speakers right off your avic. It isn't that hard to do. The wires for the speakers are on the right connector of the amp (when looking it from the front). You can just cut off that amp connector & run extension wires through the firewall to your HU. Your avic has better power then the factory amp and....your ohms would match too as a side benifit.

[KevinH1990]

That is an excellent idea.

I watched this video a few minutes ago. It provides much of the information I need to implement your suggestion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SqeVZY2pNQ

I may not have mentioned that I also have to power some rear speakers in addition to the dash and door speakers. (I installed a set of PNP rear speakers that were sold by a board participant named Harvey. The kit consists of 4 speakers. Two speakers fit in each side of the rear storage box.)

Based on your suggestion, I could power the dash and rear speakers with the head unit which produces 50 watts per channel. I would need to add an amplifier to power the doors speakers using the sub woofer outputs.

[KevinH1990]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

Wait a sec...Do you have the factory amp hooked up to your Avic? If so I'm assuming you are using one of the wiring kits for that.

You wont be able to really do anything with the eq settings. You can make changes on your Avic but it really wont matter with that factory amp in the mix.

In all honesty...you would be better just running the speakers right off your avic. It isn't that hard to do. The wires for the speakers are on the right connector of the amp (when looking it from the front). You can just cut off that amp connector & run extension wires through the firewall to your HU. Your avic has better power then the factory amp and....your ohms would match too as a side benifit.

As Stl-986 points out, according to the Pioneer web site, my head unit has, "Built-In Amplifier MOSFET 50 W x 4." I checked that against other sources to see whether anyone had tested the manufacturer's claim. According to the Crutchfield web site, the unit has, 'internal amp (14 watts RMS CEA-2006/50 peak x 4 channels)." I'm not sure what standard Haes used to rate its amp at 40 watts per channel. If it is the peak output, then simply hooking up the speakers directly to the Pioneer head unit will provide more power at no cost.

I decided to follow Stl-986's advice. It seemed like a relatively low-cost option and it would give me much better control of the woofers I put in the door. I added the 6-channel Haes amp before I upgraded from the stock CDR-220 head unit. The HAES provided 40 watts per channel to the rear speakers (which I had added after I bought the car) instead of the 20 watts per channel from the head unit.

To power the door speakers, I purchased:

1. MB Quart NA2-400.2
2. Belva BAK82 amp installation kit

Sonic Electronics had a package deal for the amp and installation kit and the total was $126 with free shipping.

Although Sonic recommended the wiring kit, I've run into something I didn't expect. The amplifier has two wiring harnesses. One is for the amp power and turn on and the other is for the speaker output. The amp power and turn on is the challenge.



The power wire is about 14 gauge while the power wire from the amp installation kit is 8 gauge. The amp wiring harness has a 30-amp fuse of the type you see in an automobile fuse box in it. The installation kit came with a fuse holder that contained an ANL-type fuse. I cannot determine the amp rating on the ANL fuse, but it is blue.

You should be able to see the difference in size of the power wire in this photo. The disparity in the size of the ground wire is similar.



In the other amplifier installations I've completed (admittedly it is only two) I have used the heavier gauge wire with a fuse directly from the battery to the amp. I mounted the fuse as close to the battery as possible.

I'm planning to call Sonic tomorrow and ask for guidance, but for now I'm wondering whether anyone has advice on resolving this challenge. I could solder the smaller gauge wire to the larger gauge wire, but that seems awkward. It may be better to return the MB Quart amp and find one with connections that are similar to the amps I've used in the past. As always, I am open to suggestions and advice. I appreciate that I am a novice and I may be missing some fundamental knowledge.

[Stl-986]

You dont need 8ga for that amp. 12 or 14ga is more then good enough since you will be mounting it in the stock location and the battery is close. Use 12ga as a safety net, but 14 is also fine. It's only 30amp

Those "amp wiring kits" are generic. They really are to wire up much bigger amps like a 1000w mono amp located 10+ feet from the battery. Send the wiring kit back.

[KevinH1990]

Thanks - That makes sense. I've contacted Sonic Electronics to determine whether they will make a price adjustment.

Because I bought the amp and installation kit as a package, the effective cost of the installation kit was $13. I probably would have spent that amount on RCA cables and speaker wire.

I'm currently considering two options for mounting the amp:

Option 1 - I was able to find an OEM CD-Changer mounting bracket and I'm planning to install the MB-Quart as shown in this thread: Double Din Stereo Install W/Amp and 3 ways

Option 2 - Since I won't be using the Haes amp anymore, I could remove it and mount the MB-Quart in its place. This would allow me to use the CD-Changer mount for a 4-Channel amp to power the dash and rear speakers if I find the head unit lacks sufficient power.

I will try out the sound on the head unit and MB Quart for a few weeks before deciding whether I need a second amp. Adding more equipment may not provide a significant improvement in sound quality.

[KevinH1990]

If I select option 2, the MB Quart will fit with room to spare in the space occupied by the Haes amp. The MB Quart is significantly smaller in width and length, but it is marginally taller than the Haes.



However, there is enough room for the MB Quart to fit within the confines of the space behind the OEM bracket.



There should be sufficient space for air to circulate and keep the amp cool. I will need to decide on the best orientation for the amp to provide access to the gain and crossover controls.

[KevinH1990]

I decided to use the OEM CD-Changer bracket that I bought from Jon/78F350. The bracket could easily accommodate a much larger amp.





Here's the model I'm using.



My original plan was to follow Stl-986's suggestion and power the rear and dash speaker from my Pioneer head unit. However, I am now planning to purchase a separate 4-channel amp and use it to replace the 6-channel Haes. Here's the model I'm considering:

https://mbquart.com/shop/mobile/mobile-amplifiers/fa1-400-4-formula-400-watt-amplifier/

In retrospect, I should have planned ahead which would have allowed me to install both amps at the same time.

Controlling the woofers in the doors from the subwoofer connections on the head unit has made a noticeable improvement in the bass response and made the sound more spacious.

I will be experimenting with setting the gain control on the amp and the equalizer and sub controls on the head unit for a few days while I attempt to optimize the sound. I also need to figure out how to anchor the top of the bracket to the bulkhead that separates the frunk from the battery compartment. My original plan to use drywall anchors didn't work.

[Stl-986]

Originally Posted by KevinH1990

I also need to figure out how to anchor the top of the bracket to the bulkhead that separates the frunk from the battery compartment. My original plan to use drywall anchors didn't work.

What? Dont understand this (and never use something made to be used in a house in a car. lol).