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986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners (http://986forum.com/forums/)
-   Boxster General Discussions (http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/)
-   -   Leaking LN Magnetic Drain Plug! (http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/78328-leaking-ln-magnetic-drain-plug.html)

piper6909 08-02-2020 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10/10ths (Post 621746)
....When you invest in the LN magnetic drain plug, it comes with instructions. And the instructions are on their web site.

Read the instructions when you buy a new product. Read the owner’s manual in your car. Engineers spent a lot of time and money and blood, sweat, and tears to engineer these things and then write up detailed instructions for their customers to make sure everything works as engineered.

But people are lazy and don’t want to take five minutes to READ.

People will drop $100,000 on a car, and then not take five minutes to read how to care for that car.

Forgive my rant, but I work in the automotive industry, my specialty is technical instruction.

I always ask folks, “If you bought a private jet, would you make sure you knew how to change the oil properly before you flew across the ocean?”

If you can’t take five minutes to read the owner’s manual, and make sure your car doesn’t dump out all its oil on a drive across Montana, then you shouldn’t buy the car.

Harsh? No. Reality? Hell yes.

RTFM.

I’m done. Thanks for your time. Return to your normal programming.
Here's the problem: The owner's manual is useless to those who have an LN plug, because LN specs much lower torques.

So if someone buys a used Box that came with the LN plug, then changes the oil and torques, as you said, to spec in the owner's manual, they will most likely damage the plug. Likewise, if they took it to an indy or quick oil change place that may not necessarily know that LN specs a different torque. Even if they use a torque wrench, they probably would torque it to the spec that their computer tells them, which is derived from the manufacturer's specs, not aftermarket products.

So instead of just blaming the user, you would think LN would have just developed a plug that used similar torque specs as the OE plug.

JFP in PA 08-02-2020 11:39 AM
Oh, I see, it is always LN’s fault that people do not read or pay attention ................

piper6909 08-02-2020 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA (Post 621763)
Oh, I see, it is always LN’s fault that people do not read or pay attention ................
Relax, JFP. ;) I never said that.

I was just offering scenarios where the operator/installer, who may be well-intentioned, gets bad torque specs from the Porsche manual because unbeknownst to them, the aftermarket plug uses a much lower spec. And to eliminate that possibility, LN could probably have made a plug with similar torque specs.

And I'm also offering a counter-narrative to your prior assertion that it's always "operator failure".

So maybe the real answer is somewhere in between and the fault is shared by both LN and the operator. Happy? ;)



EDIT: Here is an example of a magnetic oil plug with similar torque specs to OE. So it can be done:
https://www.fvd.net/us-en/FVD10717601/magnetic-drain-plug-996-997-986-987.html

njbray 08-02-2020 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDCATC (Post 621749)
I don't think these posts should get lost in the fray. After re-reading this thread I change my recommendation. Their plug may not be broken like mine was. Unless the OP is 100% sure they got it right the first time, maybe they can go back underneath and confirm the proper torque value and units were used. Let us know how it goes.
Oops, I did mean 19 ft.pounds not NM. I have since loosened the plug and retorqued to 19 ft.lbs.
I have had 3 of these plugs so I know how to use them and what torque is required. I will keep an eye on it!

JFP in PA 08-02-2020 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piper6909 (Post 621764)
Relax, JFP. ;) I never said that.

I was just offering scenarios where the operator/installer, who may be well-intentioned, gets bad torque specs from the Porsche manual because unbeknownst to them, the aftermarket plug uses a much lower spec. And to eliminate that possibility, LN could probably have made a plug with similar torque specs.

And I'm also offering a counter-narrative to your prior assertion that it's always "operator failure".

So maybe the real answer is somewhere in between and the fault is shared by both LN and the operator. Happy? ;)



EDIT: Here is an example of a magnetic oil plug with similar torque specs to OE. So it can be done:
https://www.fvd.net/us-en/FVD10717601/magnetic-drain-plug-996-997-986-987.html
No, because all sorts of aftermarket companies make stuff for these cars that use different specs than factory; ARP for instance uses different specs for several of their fastener products because they work better at the ARP specs.

If you are going to use aftermarket parts, the operator needs to understand how they are different and act accordingly.

Frodo 08-02-2020 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA (Post 621772)
No, because all sorts of aftermarket companies make stuff for these cars that use different specs than factory; ARP for instance uses different specs for several of their fastener products because they work better at the ARP specs.

If you are going to use aftermarket parts, the operator needs to understand how they are different and act accordingly.
So John, do you just “recognize” when there are different fasteners in place and adjust accordingly? Keeping in mind that it may not be obvious whose fastener it is? Just seems like a lot to keep track of. (I’m talking especially the second time around, when you’re not the one tightening that new fastener, when it’s now greasy and grungy and hard to id.)

Do most mechanics recognize LN drain plugs and know to back off on the torque applied?

And…do you use a torque wrench when you do them?

And…if not, are you gonna start? :D:D:D

JFP in PA 08-02-2020 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 621773)
So John, do you just “recognize” when there are different fasteners in place and adjust accordingly? Keeping in mind that it may not be obvious whose fastener it is? Just seems like a lot to keep track of. (I’m talking especially the second time around, when you’re not the one tightening that new fastener, when it’s now greasy and grungy and hard to id.)

Do most mechanics recognize LN drain plugs and know to back off on the torque applied?

And…do you use a torque wrench when you do them?

And…if not, are you gonna start? :D:D:D
With fasteners, they are visually different, so it is obvious. As for the drain plugs, LN’s are not marked, while others are, so again it is obvious to an experienced tech.

In my shop, if you are not using an appropriate torque wrench, you won’t be working here very long. Every fastener and drain plug is torqued to specs, period.

Frodo 08-02-2020 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA (Post 621774)
With fasteners, they are visually different, so it is obvious. As for the drain plugs, LN’s are not marked, while others are, so again it is obvious to an experienced tech.

In my shop, if you are not using an appropriate torque wrench, you won’t be working here very long. Every fastener and drain plug is torqued to specs, period.
Well okay then. I may re-think my approach on these..

On the drain plugs...do you have a different set of torque values depending on new crush washer vs old crush washer? :D:D:D:D:D:D

NO NEED TO RESPOND ON THAT ONE!

1PorscheBoxster986 08-02-2020 02:00 PM
For those who are interested in purchasing one, LN is selling the latest revision which has the torque spec and their logo laser etch(not grooved) into their magnetic oil drain plug. It should help solve the problem for you; until the etching eventually wears off :). The same one NJbray used.

Goldenzrule 08-02-2020 02:56 PM
Just installed my LN magnetic plug today. It had the torque specs marked right in the plug in NMs

piper6909 08-02-2020 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PorscheBoxster986 (Post 621776)
For those who are interested in purchasing one, LN is selling the latest revision which has the torque spec and their logo laser etch(not grooved) into their magnetic oil drain plug. It should help solve the problem for you; until the etching eventually wears off :). The same one NJbray used.
Or you can buy the one that uses the same torque as the OE plug and eliminate any chance of someone getting it wrong.

piper6909 08-02-2020 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA (Post 621774)
... As for the drain plugs, LN’s are not marked, while others are,...
And there lied the problem. Now they are marked so obviously they realized an improvement was needed. Even so, when the plug is covered in grime, you can't expect a tech to try to look for markings to see if it's an LN plug or OE so he can torque it accordingly. In a perfect world, maybe. It's best to just make a plug that matches the OE torque specs.

Also, one can't expect every tech or DIYer to identify every aftermarket bolt and know its torque spec. Not in the real world. Specialists, maybe.

JayG 08-02-2020 04:09 PM
And now the really important question..........


What oil are you using?

Frodo 08-02-2020 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayG (Post 621793)
And now the really important question..........


What oil are you using?
We're 93 posts into this...who's ready for 93 more? :D

piper6909 08-02-2020 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayG (Post 621793)
And now the really important question..........


What oil are you using?
It doesn't matter, 'cause if you torque the plug to the wrong spec you'll lose it all anyway! :D:D:D:D

1PorscheBoxster986 08-02-2020 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piper6909 (Post 621788)
Or you can buy the one that uses the same torque as the OE plug and eliminate any chance of someone getting it wrong.

I know you're playing devil's advocate here, good job, but in the real world it's 19 ft-lbs to torque the magnetic plugs from LN :cheers:.

I have never used my magnetic drain plug and the OEM one I use requires 37 ft-lbs still. I've been fortunate to use Frodo's free new crush washers I offered for all my oil changes. I made sure that guy who guarantees the warranty to the work torques down correctly and knows the bolt/screw to use because I hate to go back into a job after I patted myself well done :D .

piper6909 08-02-2020 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PorscheBoxster986 (Post 621796)
I know you're playing devil's advocate here, good job, but in the real world it's 19 ft-lbs to torque the magnetic plugs from LN :cheers:.
I guess you can call it that, but I had to respond when someone automatically lays the entire blame the operator. When in reality the operator may have had no way of knowing that there was an aftermarket plug and broke it when using OE torque specs. Simplest solution? Make the plug withstand the same torque as the OE. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PorscheBoxster986 (Post 621796)
I have never used my magnetic drain plug and the OEM one I use requires 37 ft-lbs still. I've been fortunate to use Frodo's free new crush washers I offered for all my oil changes. I made sure that guy who guarantees the warranty to the work torques down correctly and knows the bolt/screw to use because I hate to go back into a job after I patted myself well done :D .
Haha! I get that totally! I hate doing a job twice. :cheers:

Qingdao 08-02-2020 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 621755)
Geeeeeez, I wish I’d never stumbled into this thread.

After 11 years of virtually trouble-free oil changing experiences with my magnetic plug (sans torque wrench!) I’m just sure it’s all gonna go to hell in a handbasket from here on out. :eek: :eek:

You and me both... :cheers:

All this for a magnetic drain plug on an aluminum engine block. Most people on here when they get all concerned about metal shavings in their filters the metal shavings are bronze/brass in nature (guide failure??? IDK I've never been inside a flat 6 engine).

I mean you pull your drain plug out and its covered with iron shavings; you've already had problems. Like doing 5 laps WOT and then seeing your oil pressure is 0.

JFP in PA 08-02-2020 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 621775)
Well okay then. I may re-think my approach on these..

On the drain plugs...do you have a different set of torque values depending on new crush washer vs old crush washer? :D:D:D:D:D:D

NO NEED TO RESPOND ON THAT ONE!
Yes, a simple one: We don’t reuse crush washers.

JFP in PA 08-02-2020 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piper6909 (Post 621790)
And there lied the problem. Now they are marked so obviously they realized an improvement was needed. Even so, when the plug is covered in grime, you can't expect a tech to try to look for markings to see if it's an LN plug or OE so he can torque it accordingly. In a perfect world, maybe. It's best to just make a plug that matches the OE torque specs.

Also, one can't expect every tech or DIYer to identify every aftermarket bolt and know its torque spec. Not in the real world. Specialists, maybe.
Which is the world I live in.

Frodo 08-02-2020 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA (Post 621803)
Yes, a simple one: We don’t reuse crush washers.
Nor would I. Not in your situation.

Working on one's own vehicle, even doing something that is not technically "standard of care" (though has proven time and time again to work just fine in practice), is a completely distinct process from working on someone else's machine, for compensation.

maytag 08-02-2020 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 621808)
Nor would I. Not in your situation.



Working on one's own vehicle, even doing something that is not technically "standard of care" (though has proven time and time again to work just fine in practice), is a completely distinct process from working on someone else's machine, for compensation.
Y'know, I think this might be the most pertinent post to this topic.

When you're being compensated for something, the standard must be higher. Much higher. (But send those same techs home to their own garage and see how that standard applies. Especially if you've got any racers among them. I guarantee the standard is VERY different)

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

10/10ths 08-03-2020 04:33 AM
Used cars
 
The point about buying a used Boxster which already had the LN plug installed and the new owner not knowing about it is a very valid argument for “RTFM” not applying for the OP.

It’s a great point.

As posted above, LN upgraded their part and it is now labeled. As with most automotive aftermarket parts, once you start modifying a vehicle, you open a Pandora’s Box of trouble points.

These machines require due diligence and research. That’s why this forum has been a huge help for me. This forum has saved me all kinds of headaches.

Cheers.

Rob175 09-08-2020 01:23 PM
Just had my oil changed by my trusted "indi" shop and for the first time in 22 yrs it's leaking. They did replace the drain plug with a new drain plug (Porsche part, NOT the magnetic type) because after 22 yrs the original hex wrench opening was getting a bit rounded off. I also saw that they had a new aluminum crush washer with it.

But it's leaking only a bit....not a ton, but even a little oil on the rubber garage mat can look like a lot. So, they want me to bring it back and they'll lift it up and look.

I'm not an expert but I'm wondering if I should expect them to:
1. Pull the plug (collect the fresh oil for re-use) use a new crush washer and tighten to spec.
or.....
2. Just tighten the drain plug to torque specs (assuming it wasn't tighten properly in the first place) and see if it still leaks.
3. Start ALL OVER with new oil, new crush washer, tighten to spec.

Suggestions??......thx in advance.

10/10ths 09-08-2020 03:31 PM
No suggestion on best path forward....
 
.....but typically, oil leaks never get smaller.


It will act as a great indicator, however, if there are no more drops, there is no more oil in her.

😀

Good luck.

piper6909 09-08-2020 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob175 (Post 623936)
Just had my oil changed by my trusted "indi" shop and for the first time in 22 yrs it's leaking. They did replace the drain plug with a new drain plug (Porsche part, NOT the magnetic type) because after 22 yrs the original hex wrench opening was getting a bit rounded off. I also saw that they had a new aluminum crush washer with it.

But it's leaking only a bit....not a ton, but even a little oil on the rubber garage mat can look like a lot. So, they want me to bring it back and they'll lift it up and look.

I'm not an expert but I'm wondering if I should expect them to:
1. Pull the plug (collect the fresh oil for re-use) use a new crush washer and tighten to spec.
or.....
2. Just tighten the drain plug to torque specs (assuming it wasn't tighten properly in the first place) and see if it still leaks.
3. Start ALL OVER with new oil, new crush washer, tighten to spec.

Suggestions??......thx in advance.
If I did the work myself to my own car, I'd opt for #2.

BUT... Having paid someone to do it, and since you had an indie vs a quick-lube joint do it I'm sure it wasn't cheap, I'd expect #3.

78F350 09-08-2020 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 621351)
...
You can anneal aluminum washers.
blacken with a magic marker.
heat just until the magic marker burns off.
Air cool room temp.

Working copper or aluminum work hardens both.
To the point where they become brittle and crack.
Annealing them takes both back to there normal malleable state

There are times when you just can't buy what your looking for.
maybe a washer of a certain size and thickness.
Today I changed the oil in my wife's Honda Element. Rather than using a new crush washer I annealed the old one because of this thread. Now I'm going go outside with a flashlight and check for a leak because of this thread.

blue62 09-09-2020 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 78F350 (Post 623950)
Today I changed the oil in my wife's Honda Element. Rather than using a new crush washer I annealed the old one because of this thread. Now I'm going go outside with a flashlight and check for a leak because of this thread.
Let us know if it leaks;)

Frodo 09-09-2020 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 78F350 (Post 623950)
Today I changed the oil in my wife's Honda Element. Rather than using a new crush washer I annealed the old one because of this thread. Now I'm going go outside with a flashlight and check for a leak because of this thread.
A new member in the Reuse That Crush Washer club?
I don't know...should we all, collectively, be "disgusted"?
:D:D:D

Rob175 09-09-2020 06:53 AM
I'm hoping they offer to start all over but it's more likely they will first try just tightening the drain plug and tell me to come back if it continues to leak.

I can almost guarantee they DID NOT use a torque wrench to tighten the plug to the 35 ft/lb spec. Since I don't wrench myself I wonder how many ft/lbs someone with just a wrench and arm strength would typically tighten the drain plug..... my guess is without a accurate torque wrench they might not tighten the plug enough to "crush" the washer enough to make a good seal.....or conversly they made it too tight and damaged the crush washer..........no idea.

I suppose tomorrow at the shop will tell.........

Frodo 09-09-2020 07:27 AM
Well, assuming you're right and they did not use a torque wrench initially, and assuming they bother to look up the proper torque called for, it would only make sense that they'd start out by properly torquing it. What's to lose with that approach?

Rob175 09-09-2020 07:44 AM
Thanks Frodo.....I think tightening to specs is a good starting point. Like you said what's there to lose. I did get a few extra aluminum Porsche drain crush washers just in case they pull the plug.

BFeller 09-09-2020 08:20 AM
This conversation makes me miss my Guardian Plug in the oil pan. Wish I had another.....

Rob175 09-09-2020 12:45 PM
Can anyone confirm the stock (not the magnetic) torque spec. for the Boxster (98) oil drain plug.....I' read on one thread that it's 35 ft. lbs.

Seems a bit high, but then again not sure, so i thought others would know.....or send me to the proper reference source.

Thx

piper6909 09-09-2020 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 623983)
What's to lose with that approach?
Only Rob175's time having to keep going back. That's what would frustrate me.

If I ran the shop I'd apologize to the customer, pull the drain plug, replace the crush washer and refill with new oil. And make damn sure it never happened again. And if I were the customer, anything less than that I'd find another indie for all my future service.

I can forgive mistakes, we all make them. It's how one remedies the mistake that separates the good shops from the rest.

ccjazz 09-09-2020 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob175 (Post 624016)
Can anyone confirm the stock (not the magnetic) torque spec. for the Boxster (98) oil drain plug.....I' read on one thread that it's 35 ft. lbs.

Seems a bit high, but then again not sure, so i thought others would know.....or send me to the proper reference source.

Thx
Both the Bentley manual and 101 Projects book specify 37 ft-lbs torque for the stock drain plug.

Rob175 09-09-2020 05:56 PM
I’m guessing that my “indi” WILL START OVER. He’s always treated me excellently. I’ve been his customer for over 25 yrs and have brought him numerous cars over the years as well as recommending him to many of my friends and family.

I’ll report back but my guess is he’ll start over knowing I’m one of his good customers.

Rob175 09-10-2020 07:10 AM
So......
today back at the shop I watched from under the car and it appeared that it needed another 1/4 turn (using a torque wrench set to 37 ft. lbs)......parked it back in my garage, placed brown construction paper under it and I'll check it again later. Hopefully that's all it needed....probably lost a 1/4 cup of oil at the most. Oil on the paper spreads so it always looks more than it really is.

Frodo 09-10-2020 12:15 PM
Let us know, I'd be curious.

I know what Piper (and you) were sayin' about "starting over," draining, inserting plug with new crush washer and oil, but I suspect what he did will take care of the problem. (It did for me last time I changed the oil, though I wasn't using a torque wrench either time.)

The environmental (and frugal) part of me quietly objected to wasting 9 qts of expensive oil if it was not necessary—that notwithstanding the fact that I realize driving a Boxster isn't the most environmentally friendly thing I could do. (I have an 'out'...my wife drives a Prius and, unlike me, loves it. So we more or less offset each other ;) )

Qingdao 09-11-2020 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo (Post 624101)

The environmental (and frugal) part of me quietly objected to wasting 9 qts of expensive oil if it was not necessary—that notwithstanding the fact that I realize driving a Boxster isn't the most environmentally friendly thing I could do. (I have an 'out'...my wife drives a Prius and, unlike me, loves it. So we more or less offset each other ;) )
I daily drive a turbo RX7 your offsets mean nothing LOL :cheers:

But yeah no reason to drop all your oil. Just put a rubber plug (or just your finger) in there while you figure out what went wrong. Its not like you're holding anything but a few centimeters of head pressure.


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