Worth it to 'check' IMS bearing during clutch? Clutch recommendations?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by thom4782

A warranty doesn't prevent actual failures. It simply says who will pay should a failure occur. Can anyone cite an example where a manufacturer warrants a part for longer that 5 years which, if the part fails, will destroy an engine that costs $15K to $20K to replace with a fresh unit.

NO warranty covers consequential damages, and at no time have I called for that. There are, however, plenty of lifetime warranties where they would replace the part, if it fails. Lifetime brake warranty, is just one example, but it won't cover your rotor if the pad fails and scores it. No one is asking for that.

All I'm saying is that if you claim your product is the "permanent solution" give it a permanent warranty. If not, you're just all talk and no substance.

Originally Posted by thom4782

Here's how I see it. Porsche offered either a 3 or 4 year warranty (I don't recall which time period it was). Now your at 100K+ miles on a car that is likely 12+ years old and its time to replace the clutch. You're way beyond any numbers that Porsche would stand behind. Now do you really want to bet that the original IMSB will last another 100K miles/ many years until your next clutch job. I wouldn't take that bet unless I planned to sell the car in a year or two.

And I'd agree.

If I had a manual transmission, I'd replace the IMSB when changing the clutch. But I would not spend 1/2 the cost of an engine on it. I'd get an OEM-style bearing for less than $50. If it lasted 100K+ miles, like your example, there's no reason why the new one shouldn't last 100K.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

To answer your question, yes, the IMS Solution is a permanent replacement, it never has to be replaced. This is just one of the reasons this retrofit is popular with Tiptronic owners.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by imhighlander

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

Actually, from their own website, only "...3,000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008".

https://lnengineering.com/products/ims-bearing-kits-for-porsche-m96-97-engines/ims-solution/ims-solution-for-single-row-ims-my00-05.html

Of course they've sold other products, but we're talking about the "IMS Solution."

Like I said, I'm sure it's a great product and I'm not trying to take anything away from it or from you. I have a great deal of respect for you and your vast knowledge on these cars.

But you seem to have more confidence in it than LN Engineering does.

[mikefocke]

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product. Eventually the IMS buys will dry up.

Having talked to the inventors, they have high confidence that the probable lifetime is ...

Heck, most of their dual rows are now beyond the 5 year point and I don't see any of the 5 forums I visit daily filled with tales of woe.

If I were making this choice, if I were investing in lots of preventative measures inside the engine, no doubt which I'd specify.

If I were to look hard at my situation and only see the car staying with me for 3-5 years it would be a different choice.

28 other failure points and driver error can total the car for practical purposes.

[tonythetiger]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product.

Accounting rules? They aren't publically traded, and they don't need cash reserve for warranty even if they were. If they extended the warranty, they would buy insurance; they even have a cost-positive option with offering insurance as an add-on. given the stated track record, insurance companies would consider this free money.
invest in next product? They are dealers for various manufacturers and automotive fabricators. They didnt "invent" anything when it comes to the IMS retrofit.

Smiles

[JFP in PA]

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

[thom4782]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

JFP says it best. It's your choice to spend your money with whatever developer you want. Factor in the their various warranties into your price calculations, but there is little value in bemoaning the developers' business decisions.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

Hey, JFP. I didn't mean for you to get all offended. I hope I made it clear how much I appreciate you and your vast knowledge on these cars. And I wasn't trying to take anything away from the product, as I've also stated.

All I'm saying is that if they make the claim that it's the "permanent solution" it's somewhat disingenuous to guarantee it for only 5 years. Especially for what they're charging for it. I wouldn't buy it no matter how they guaranteed it. That was never my point.

[elgyqc]

In 50 years when the only remaining 986s are in museums, any reference to IMS bearings will still lead to long repetitive discussions that will end with people yelling at each other from battles lines drawn up on opposing sides of LN...

My response to the original question... sure with the transmission off, remove the flywheel, lock the cams, remove the IMSB flange and inspect the bearing as others have suggested. I did that on my blue 2000 and plan to do it on the green one this year. If it is tight pull the bearing seal off and button it up. But that's just me...

[Qingdao]

Originally Posted by elgyqc

In 50 years when the only remaining 986s are in museums, any reference to IMS bearings will still lead to long repetitive discussions that will end with people yelling at each other from battles lines drawn up on opposing sides of LN...

My response to the original question... sure with the transmission off, remove the flywheel, lock the cams, remove the IMSB flange and inspect the bearing as others have suggested. I did that on my blue 2000 and plan to do it on the green one this year. If it is tight pull the bearing seal off and button it up. But that's just me...

Love it.


OP: If you are thinking about an IMSB failure... just replace it. Then you won't think about it.

I mean how much is an IMSB set? Most of the PITA is from it being behind the trans, and the cam locking.

[dghii]

Lots of thing seem easy once someone has already done 'it' once.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by dghii

Lots of thing seem easy once someone has already done 'it' once.

Granted they deserve some credit. But any mechanic worth their weight knows that when you work on a timing component you have to make sure you're not upsetting the timing.

It's no accident that Porsche put slots at the ends of the cams. It takes an extra machining step. It's also no accident that those marks line up vertically when the crank is at TDC. It's also no accident that the crank pulley has a hole that lines up with a hole in the case so you can insert a tool to lock it in place. It's also no accident that Porsche designed the chain tensioners to be installed from the outside of the motor, so they can be installed after engine assembly. This is different than most tensioners I've worked with.

So Porsche already had a procedure to lock the cams and crank on TDC, and for removing and installing chain tensioners.

Knowing all that, it's not that big of a leap to think, "Hey I wonder if I can pull this bearing out and put another one in." Especially for someone already quite familiar with these motors and with an extra motor or two lying around.

I figured out that you can take a non-EGR Subaru head, drill and tap a hole in it and install it in an EGR car. Conversely, you can plug the hole in an EGR head and install it in a Non-EGR car. Subaru said you have to use specific heads. People figure out how to do something that the manufacturer says can't be done all the time.

[maytag]

Oh the irony:
Cheering the ingenuity and resourcefulness of one group who developed something that Porsche said can't be done, only for that group to thenbecome the ones telling everyone that theirs is the only way, and the same people cheering them on.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[JFP in PA]

Even if you sold a pending patent, you would still be listed as the inventor, the purchaser would be the assignee.

And as much as you would like to besmirch Jake and Charles, they are listed as the inventors on all of the IMS Solution patents, which as stated earlier are "clean", meaning no assignments, which legally means they did not purchase the rights from someone else. From the US governments site on patent laws and rights:

"“Assignment,” in general, is the act of transferring to another the ownership of one’s property, i.e., the interest and rights to the property. In 37 CFR 3.1, assignment of patent rights is defined as “a transfer by a party of all or part of its right, title and interest in a patent [or] patent application....” An assignment of a patent, or patent application, is the transfer to another of a party’s entire ownership interest or a percentage of that party’s ownership interest in the patent or application. In order for an assignment to take place, the transfer to another must include the entirety of the bundle of rights that is associated with the ownership interest, i.e., all of the bundle of rights that are inherent in the right, title and interest in the patent or patent application."

Have a good evening.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Even if you sold a pending patent, you would still be listed as the inventor, the purchaser would be the assignee.

And as much as you would like to besmirch Jake and Charles, they are listed as the inventors on all of the IMS Solution patents, which as stated earlier are "clean", meaning no assignments, which legally means they did not purchase the rights from someone else. From the US governments site on patent rights:

"“Assignment,” in general, is the act of transferring to another the ownership of one’s property, i.e., the interest and rights to the property. In 37 CFR 3.1, assignment of patent rights is defined as “a transfer by a party of all or part of its right, title and interest in a patent [or] patent application....” An assignment of a patent, or patent application, is the transfer to another of a party’s entire ownership interest or a percentage of that party’s ownership interest in the patent or application. In order for an assignment to take place, the transfer to another must include the entirety of the bundle of rights that is associated with the ownership interest, i.e., all of the bundle of rights that are inherent in the right, title and interest in the patent or patent application."

Have a good evening.

I don't know the guys so I have no reason to "besmirch" them. At first, I found it more than comical that they claim it's the "permanent solution" but they only guarantee it for 5 years. Then I scratched the surface a bit and found this guy who was developing a prototype for a bushing (very similar to the "solution") to replace the bearing, and documenting his progress in a thread. He was even planning to market it for $200. So for him to turn a profit, I assume it would cost less than $100 to make.

Later, he suddenly wrote that he could not talk about it because he sold his patent, and that same month, Jake and Charles applied for their patent. Perhaps there's another way to sell a pending application without "assigning" it, so the buyers can have a "clean" patent? I don't know, I'm not a patent attorney and I believe neither are you, but feel free to correct me.

Today I learned that Jake and Charles weren't even the ones who figured out how to R & R the IMSB, which some on here, including you, give them credit for.

From the beginning, all I said was if you're going to charge $1850.00 for your 'permanent solution', put your money where your mouth is and give it a 'permanent' warranty.

I'm not besmirching them. I'm posting info as I find it. I am, however, besmirching that weak warranty. And BTW, I said the same about the EPS roller bearing warranty. They also claim theirs a "permanent" solution. But you choose to bend over backwards to defend LN. That's your prerogative and you have your reasons.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

I don't know the guys so I have no reason to "besmirch" them. At first, I found it more than comical they they claim it's the "permanent solution" but they only guarantee it for 5 years. Then I scratched the surface a bit and found this guy who was developing a prototype for a bushing (very similar to the "solution") to replace the bearing, and documenting his progress in a thread. He was even planning to market it for $200. So for him to turn a profit, I assume it would cost less than $100 to make.

Later, he suddenly wrote that he could not talk about it because he sold his patent, and that same month, Jake and Charles applied for their patent. Perhaps there's another way to sell a pending application without "assigning" it, so the buyers can have a "clean" patent? I don't know, I'm not a patent attorney and I believe neither are you, but feel free to correct me.

Today I learned that Jake and Charles weren't even the ones who figured out how to R & R the IMSB, which some on here, including you, give them credit for.

From the beginning, all I said was if you're going to charge $1850.00 for your 'permanent solution', put your money where your mouth is and give it a 'permanent' warranty.

I'm not besmirching them. I'm posting info as I find it. I am, however, besmirching that weak warranty. And BTW, I said the same about the EPS roller bearing warranty. They also claim theirs a "permanent" solution. But you choose to bend over backwards to defend LN, but not EPS. That's your prerogative and you have your reasons.

Basically that no roller or ball bearing assembly will survive indefinitely in this application, so anyone claiming otherwise should be held suspect. The bearing engineer hired by Jake and Charles during their development of the ceramic hybrid bearing basically indicated that a roller bearing offered no advantages over a ball bearing design in this application, and could have limitations, which is why they went with the ceramic ball design rather than a roller design.

EPS promotes using a point steel implement to punch a hole of a specific size in the pump end of the shaft to allow oil to flow towards the bearing, and then use an oil pump drive shaft with a grove cut into it for the oil. Jake's work had shown that quite a few shafts did not run true to their center line, so flooding the shaft would worsen the side loading on whatever IMS bearing is at the other end. It is for this exact reason that every IMS Solution installation includes an sealing plug behind the Solution bearing in the shaft to prevent flooding. Early on, those that seriously raced the M96 engine discovered that the stock oil pump drive shaft, the one EPS cuts a grove in, is a weak point and can actually snap before any grove is cut into to it, taking the engine to the grave along with it. Every engine that leaves Jake' shop has a chrome moly steel replacement oil pump drive shaft for exactly this reason.

LN actually makes a roller bearing for the IMS, which is used pretty much exclusively by engine rebuilder RND out of Atlanta. RND also offers LN ceramic hybrid or IMS Solutions if the customer asks for them.

One of the main reasons I shy away from the roller designs is a lack of development information, and a rather limited installed base of successful installation's. Jake and Charles have been very upfront and public about their products, how they developed and tested them, and have open to questions, including how many LN hybrids have failed over the years since introduction. All you have to do is ask. When you and your shop's name is on a retrofit, you cannot accept risks, you need to go with what works time and again. I like to sleep at night, so we only went with what we knew works.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Basically that no roller or ball bearing assembly will survive indefinitely in this application, so anyone claiming otherwise should be held suspect. The bearing engineer hired by Jake and Charles during their development of the ceramic hybrid bearing basically indicated that a roller bearing offered no advantages over a ball bearing design in this application, and could have limitations, which is why they went with the ceramic ball design rather than a roller design.

EPS promotes using a point steel implement to punch a hole of a specific size in the pump end of the shaft to allow oil to flow towards the bearing, and then use an oil pump drive shaft with a grove cut into it for the oil. Jake's work had shown that quite a few shafts did not run true to their center line, so flooding the shaft would worsen the side loading on whatever IMS bearing is at the other end. It is for this exact reason that every IMS Solution installation includes an sealing plug behind the Solution bearing in the shaft to prevent flooding. Early on, those that seriously raced the M96 engine discovered that the stock oil pump drive shaft, the one EPS cuts a grove in, is a weak point and can actually snap before any grove is cut into to it, taking the engine to the grave along with it. Every engine that leaves Jake' shop has a chrome moly steel replacement oil pump drive shaft for exactly this reason.

LN actually makes a roller bearing for the IMS, which is used pretty much exclusively by engine rebuilder RND out of Atlanta. RND also offers LN ceramic hybrid or IMS Solutions if the customer asks for them.

One of the main reasons I shy away from the roller designs is a lack of development information, and a rather limited installed base of successful installation's. Jake and Charles have been very upfront and public about their products, how they developed and tested them, and have open to questions, including how many LN hybrids have failed over the years since introduction. When you and your shop's name is on a retrofit, you cannot accept risks, you need to go with what works time and again. I like to sleep at night, so we only went with what we knew works.

Fair enough. I totally get that, on principle, a plain bearing is far more durable than a ball or roller bearing. So you're saying you won't install LN's other bearings, only the "solution'?

I agree with you that it's a fine product, and there's a solid argument to be made that it's actually the best out there. But when it costs at minimum twice as much as anything else out there, don't you agree that they can offer a much better warranty? I mean, seriously. After all the pre-qualifications, and to only honor the warranty if it's installed by an authorized mechanic, don't you think they should believe in their product enough to offer a lifetime warranty? To me it screams that they don't believe in it, not even as much as you do.