IMS failures on automatics?

[Xpit77]

I had my 99 tip done at 138km. Indy said tips do fail but nearly not as often as a manual. They had done around 60 in total when mine was done.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by Xpit77

I had my 99 tip done at 138km. Indy said tips do fail but nearly not as often as a manual. They had done around 60 in total when mine was done.

That's more anecdotal evidence that anything. In theory, Tip or manual shouldn't make any difference whatsoever. Except maybe people that opt for a manual tend to drive them a little harder or maybe inadvertently over-rev when downshifting?

[Kice]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Yes, from what I read, 6204DUA17 was a number used specifically for Porsche. But BD20-17 is still available:

https://www.123bearing.com/bearing-BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK.php

I saw that too. Did anyone actually confirm with the manufacturer or any other reliable source that this is --exactly-- the same bearing that was originally installed by Porsche? If yes, it would be the best (and cheapest) replacement for dual-row models..

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by Kice

I saw that too. Did anyone actually confirm with the manufacturer or any other reliable source that this is --exactly-- the same bearing that was originally installed by Porsche? If yes, it would be the best (and cheapest) replacement for dual-row models..

I just checked and the size is the same. The number on the bearing also looks similar: 6204DUA17NSK. If I had known about this bearing when I did the rebuild I would`ve gone with this one, this is the closest match for the original I`ve seen.

[Kice]

Thanks. I ordered the NSK bearing and compared it to the one that I pulled from my engine. It is identical, producer, specs and serial number. There is no conceivable reason why a global producer like NSK would change the technical characteristics of a bearing that they continue to market under the same serial number. I did however get the Pelican kit but only to use the new and reinforced center bolt. In my view that is the best solution to replace the IMS double-row bearing -- and the cheapest (bearing is $45). I spoke to few places back home in Germany who perform IMS bearing swaps, and they all use the original NSK bearing.

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by Kice

Thanks. I ordered the NSK bearing and compared it to the one that I pulled from my engine. It is identical, producer, specs and serial number. There is no conceivable reason why a global producer like NSK would change the technical characteristics of a bearing that they continue to market under the same serial number. I did however get the Pelican kit but only to use the new and reinforced center bolt. In my view that is the best solution to replace the IMS double-row bearing -- and the cheapest (bearing is $45). I spoke to few places back home in Germany who perform IMS bearing swaps, and they all use the original NSK bearing.

Yeah, that should last for at least as long as the original lasted. There`s another thread about a single row at 235k miles, still running perfect. As for the center bolt, there is very little load on that thing, the original should also be fine if it is not overtightened.

[nuvolari]

Originally Posted by Kice

I did however get the Pelican kit but only to use the new and reinforced center bolt. In my view that is the best solution to replace the IMS double-row bearing -- and the cheapest (bearing is $45). I spoke to few places back home in Germany who perform IMS bearing swaps, and they all use the original NSK bearing.

Just wondering if you went with this method and how everything worked out?

Also,
to JFP in PA,

with your experience, I'd like to know if you feel confident that a dual row NSK bearing with the flywheel side seal removed would survive with oil mist lubrication? Or do you think leaving the seals on would be best? Have you seen any examples of good or bad with the deleted seal method? Maybe too few to really form an opinion but still curious. I've read that the Pelican kit, although it uses a single row bearing, they have an improvement over the OEM in that they use a bearing with more durable seals which can be seen with the red/amber color of those seals. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but I saw it in Pelican's tech articles.

And, finally, although I fully believe that the oil level in the sump is low with the engine running, why do folks suggest running M96 engines with a slightly low from full reading on the gauge/dipstick? I would think the added oil would be good once the engine is up and running and any issues at start up or lower rpms wouldn't cause a problem. The only reason I can think of would be due to aerated oil taking up more space.

Thanks to all for the info....

[JFP in PA]

I for one have never understood why someone would go to the expense or effort to replace the existing questionable bearing with another one that looks just like it, unless your only motive was to be able to say the IMS was "updated" and then quickly trade or sell the car. Even less credible is replacing a dual row factory bearing, one of the most durable, with a single row, the most problematic, and a spacer. Jeez.........

In my shop, we only used either the LN ceramic hybrid bearing, a design that is much stronger than the factory steel bearing, or the LN IMS Solution which is the "once and done forever" answer to the entire question. No NSK, no roller bearings, and absolutely no DOF installations. If a potential customer wanted something else, they were told they needed to go somewhere else. Once LN and Jake released the dual row design IMS Solution, we pretty much did not install anything but IMS Solutions. Yes, they cost more, but they never fail, never have to be changed out, and definitely add to resale/trade values.

[nuvolari]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I for one have never understood why someone would go to the expense or effort to replace the existing questionable bearing with another one that looks just like it, unless your only motive was to be able to say the IMS was "updated" and then quickly trade or sell the car.

Well, my car has 160k miles on what appears to be the original bearing and I'm also going on what you said in this thread about how some cars go many miles on the OEM bearing while others fail quickly and repeatedly. While I would love to install the Solution, the price is just too ridiculous. If it were closer to $1000, I would probably go for it as it's the only bearing that seems reliable, both in design and statistics.
With that said, I have a car with an OEM bearing that's gone 160k miles and with a new dual row bearing installed, I should be at around an overall failure rate of 3%. Can you show me an alternative other than the Solution that can make that claim?

Even less credible is replacing a dual row factory bearing, one of the most durable, with a single row, the most problematic, and a spacer. Jeez.........

I agree. I would never downgrade to a single row ball bearing whether ceramic or steel.

In my shop, we only used either the LN ceramic hybrid bearing, a design that is much stronger than the factory steel bearing, or the LN IMS Solution which is the "once and done forever" answer to the entire question. No NSK, no roller bearings, and absolutely no DOF installations. If a potential customer wanted something else, they were told they needed to go somewhere else. Once LN and Jake released the dual row design IMS Solution, we pretty much did not install anything but IMS Solutions. Yes, they cost more, but they never fail, never have to be changed out, and definitely add to resale/trade values.

Yes, the Solution is a great choice but the price...! These cars are still falling in price and although they will probably eventually appreciate, they will always be the black sheep of the Porsche family and will remain slightly lower than earlier and later models without all the problems of these cars. Therefor, it's going to be difficult to sell Solutions as the years progress. I wish they had designed a bearing that utilized replaceable bearings similar to rod bearings and then used a less exotic material for the metals that make up the Solution as I'm guessing that may be driving the price up. True, it wouldn't last forever but longer than the crank or rod bearings and it would be easy to replace at an engine rebuild or when changing a clutch. Maybe they could come out with something like this or other ways to bring the price down.

As for the ceramic bearing, I've read about too many failures of this bearing to feel comfortable using it. Not saying there's anything wrong with it but there are serious questions about this bearing which only time will answer. And that's the whole problem with the IMSB; no one actually knows what causes it and so all we have to base a very expensive decision on are statistics, expert experience and our own personal beliefs.
Same thing for the roller bearings...while they may be fine in regard to the thrust issue, they're too new to be sure about.

I guess the post ends with the question of whether 97% is enough to feel secure. Statistically, it probably is....
Oh, but how I would love that 100% Solution!

[Stl-986]

With 160k miles I think the IMS is the least of possible issues you would need to worry about. Even if you only put half those miles on yourself I think your tip will give out before your IMS does so why even bother?

[nuvolari]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

With 160k miles I think the IMS is the least of possible issues you would need to worry about. Even if you only put half those miles on yourself I think your tip will give out before your IMS does so why even bother?

Mine's a manual S. And the 6 speed has already given out. Hence the lack of appeal in spending big bucks on the IMSB.

Yes, I know what the thread's about but I had a related question....

[Homeoboxter]

Originally Posted by Stl-986

With 160k miles I think the IMS is the least of possible issues you would need to worry about. Even if you only put half those miles on yourself I think your tip will give out before your IMS does so why even bother?

Agreed. There`s so many things other than the IMSB that can go wrong in this engine and can cause catastrophic engine failure. If you are really worry about it but don`t want to spend big bucks on the solution, why not just swap it out with the original NSK? That should be good at least for another 160k miles if the current one is still good.

[nuvolari]

Originally Posted by Homeoboxter

Agreed. There`s so many things other than the IMSB that can go wrong in this engine and can cause catastrophic engine failure. If you are really worry about it but don`t want to spend big bucks on the solution, why not just swap it out with the original NSK? That should be good at least for another 160k miles if the current one is still good.

Yup, that's exactly my thinking, as seen in the posts above, although my car is a 6 speed manual. I've gone off much of your advice and Grant's also in regard to all this.