$2.29 a Gallon!!

[longislander1]

My point is that this country has NO energy policy under the current administration, other than to line the pockets of the oil companies. Richard Branson is committing more dollars to alternative fuels than the U.S. government. (And, by the way, alternate energy firms ARE funding ethanol refineries AND getting local government approvals for such facilities. How interesting!)

I'm no fan of any politicians at the moment, but we have to give the Democrats a chance because right now they're all we have. The Republicans have chosen the oil industry over the people they're supposed to represent.

I do believe prices will rise after the election. After this past week, you'll see the oil producers will add to their rationalizations for gouging by throwing Hugo Chavez and Venezuela into the mix.

If any of you are following China's strong and diplomatic quest for energy resources in Latin America (and our apparent rejection or ignorance of this important region), there will come a day when Venezuela (as well as Iran) will find enough buyers for their oil outside the United States. I have no idea what gas should cost now, since I'm not one of the pricing manipulators, but I can tell you we will be wishing for $3.00 a gallon if those two countries are able to take their business elsewhere and the U.S. continues with its total lack of an alternative energy policy.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by longislander1

My point is that this country has NO energy policy under the current administration, other than to line the pockets of the oil companies. Richard Branson is committing more dollars to alternative fuels than the U.S. government. (And, by the way, alternate energy firms ARE funding ethanol refineries AND getting local government approvals for such facilities. How interesting!)

I'm no fan of any politicians at the moment, but we have to give the Democrats a chance because right now they're all we have. The Republicans have chosen the oil industry over the people they're supposed to represent.

I do believe prices will rise after the election. After this past week, you'll see the oil producers will add to their rationalizations for gouging by throwing Hugo Chavez and Venezuela into the mix.

If any of you are following China's strong and diplomatic quest for energy resources in Latin America (and our apparent rejection or ignorance of this important region), there will come a day when Venezuela (as well as Iran) will find enough buyers for their oil outside the United States. I have no idea what gas should cost now, since I'm not one of the pricing manipulators, but I can tell you we will be wishing for $3.00 a gallon if those two countries are able to take their business elsewhere and the U.S. continues with its total lack of an alternative energy policy.

Factually speaking, the US Rederal Government has an "energy policy" if one looks at ALL of its practices and regulations. You may or may not LIKE those policies and if you are unhappy, you can try to elect some folks who will enact one you like.

Of course to do that, you need a context. Simply saying that the US Government is in the pocket of the oil industry doesn't make it so. Again, no data, simply assertions that, since the policy is not what I like, it MUST be because all these guys are crooks, but I am pure.

Again, factually, if there were going on for as long as it has been implied, where is your proof? Where are the convictions>

Where is the ROI data that shows how well these companies are doing with their capital IN THE LONG RUN!

All commodity prices fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. You have not offered up one shread of credible evidence that the oil industry is engaged in any illegal actions, nor that oil prices are being manipulated.

No surprise, Congress, the FTC, Justice and the state AGs can't either.

Might be because it is not happening.

If it IS happening, it is happening ALL OVER THE WORLD! Are there NO law enforcement agencies anywhere in the world that can find these guys out?

And STILL, OPEC cannot keep its prices up.

Simply picking a time when prices go up to yell conspiracy makes you look silly.

I have no doubt that like any commodity, the price of oil will rise and fall depending on how folks perceive current and future supply and demand issues. The fact that nations are posturing to ensure that their energy needs are met is simply a fact of life.

So what, what is your alternative.

Would you like to nationalize all US oil companies.

In absence of any legal basis to do this or any evidence of illegal activity, what would you expect to be better? Are you suggesting that the US government can provide energy for us more effectively.

I am still laughing at that one.

What exactly are you suggesting, that the Democraps can do a better job? Where is your evidence for that? Are you suggesting that the Clinton administration did a better job?

Data please on that one!

Making assertions is easy, backing them up with facts is not!

[Perfectlap]

Bruce,
If you are relying on the a politicaly driven system of federal regualtion to reassure/convince you when there is collusion then you've got to reassess your reliance on the integrity of our government.

The very fact that the FTC has NEVER found the oil and gas industry guilty of collusion show their total lack of being consistent to all industries that come before them.
It's no different than any developing country "it's who you know" or whose campaign your are kicking in moolah for elaborate soft money contribution schemes (ask Duke Cunningham). Where is the campaign finance reform that we were promised over a decade ago? Same place the fines for outright price manipulation by the oil and gas industry ended up, non-existent lala land. It goes against human nature to leave money on the table when a clever bending of the rules will allow you to go home with your pockets that much heavier.
If there are no convictions does this mean their is no price fixing/manipulation?

It defies logic to believe that the oil and gas industry will ever be held accountable for their practices with the current political system. They contribute to politicians who make regulatory and judicial appointments and there's no quid pro quo? c'mon.

Take Immigration. Bush accepts $$$$$$ from huge corporations that rely heavily on the 10+ million undocumented workers and in 2005 his INS Commissioner rubber stamps the penalizing of less than 500 violations of employer violations for the entire year? Post 9/11? Are you kidding me??? The lack of convictions must mean that their is less employing of undocumented workers?

The EPA fined fewer polluters last year than at any point since Nixon built the agency? The lack of convictions must mean their is less polluting going on then ever before? Hmmm..

This is what they want you to believe, if there are no convictions that means there is no wrong doing. By the way that Bridge nearby in Brooklyn is still for sale.

As for what SHOULD gas cost, well no one will ever know that because we have no way of knowing to what extent costs are padded at every step of the Oil exploration to unleaded gas futures dog and pony show. Their return of Investments may look as shaky as the airline industry, But believe me, if you look at the executive compensation and the EARNINGS of this sector in the last year alone somebody is making a hell of allot of money. The industry says Katrina will have put a massive dent in our output yet they have to appear before congress to explain if things are sooo bad why are they all looking at bigger pay checks than they have ever cashed in their time on this planet?

Its no different than the major hollywood film studios. Billions are made yet according to them and their accountants at the end of the day they only make just enough to cover their operational costs and drive home weeping in their Enzos.
Its a wonder a movie ever gets made or a gallon of gas ever gets refined.
Those poor guys.

[Brucelee]

Several quick points.

How much money should an oil company make? How much money should YOU make?

How do you know that?

Randy Cunningham is in jail.

Yes, there are folks that commit crimes, known and unkown. '

Some are in government, some are in industry.

Your point is?

Your solution is?

You know there is a problem how?

If you don't know how much something SHOULD cost, how do you know it costs TOO much?

You are operating without foundation here and EVERYTHING in the world economy could be attacked with the same brush you are attacking the oil industry with.

So what?

What is your alternative?

Would you like to nationalize the oil industry?

Lets here your plan to solve the "problem" you can't define?

Is the price $1, $2, or what?

Where is the place where the price is what you want it to be and why?

[Brucelee]

"The EPA fined fewer polluters last year than at any point since Nixon built the agency? The lack of convictions must mean their is less polluting going on then ever before? Hmmm.."

Well, actually that is possible. You have data but no proof.

After 40 years of Environmental legal action, I can certainly believe that companies have figured out that it is pretty stupid to break the law. Expensive too!

Why can't you believe that?

Are you a big fan of M. Moore movies? I bet you are!

[Perfectlap]

Actually I think Michael Moore is an idiot. Not so much because of his movies but because he thinks along the lines of "us vs. them", He's as partisan as that other idiot Ann Coulter. This country has MASSIVE problems in the short term and SURREAL problems in the long term. Yet people are busy picking out their red or blue hats to wear on the deck of the Titanic. as far as the EPA there's no worry about breaking the law when the bar is set lower and lower each year. And those who do get caught get a mere slap on the wrist when you consider what they are doing to ALL OF US. If we can't even expect adequate federaly funded budgets to fight terrorism in the NYC subway (actually LESS since 9/11) how can you expect adequate funding for a lab looking for water polluters in areas no one goes to?? But rest assure that water makes it way onto the dinner tables of many working stiffs. Hello Washington anybody home????

The Concorde Coaltion have been squaking about the fiscal mess that our current crop of clowns in Washington have made for years yet its made no ZERO, ZILCH impact. There are no solutions that have a shot in hell of getting approved by our current Congress.
Pete Petersen a true fiscal conservative, a very smart dude and life time Republican has given up all hope of our fixing this mess. When smart dudes who know everybody that can help pass a law or enact a change are out of solutions then you have to wonder. I can only hope the current elections will bring about some massive reshuffling and maybe some form of political reform can be brought about to end the corruption and influence peddling that drive up our energy bills, spike our gas prices, and send our jobs to China.

I guess you are of the school of thought that without evidence you are "NOT GUILTY" while I beleive that the lack of 'proof' (there's plenty to find, depens who is looking) does not mean "INNOCENT".

The oil and gas industry is no more evil than the Tobbacco industry, Pharmaceutical industry, Health Care Industry, Walmart, and other very profitable industries that provide jobs but chip away and degrade the future of this country when a long term outlook is employed. This country has allowed companies to be as profitable as they can be for hundreds of years but in this latest chapter we are allowing to seek profitability at the cost of our nation's future like never before. A trillion dollar deficit, A massive chunk of our GDP to pay for healthcare, Our manufacturing base in tatters and the influence of those who lead these industries have done nothing wrong???????

A stronger argument for divided goverment has never been more glarinlgy evident. Collobaration is needed, one party in charge of everything makes it open season on the country.

and what should a gallon of gas cost? Every industry operates with different levels of profitability, they take whatever they can get and leave nothing behind. Some can expect nearly zero while others can expect a heck of allot more. Depending on how much we need their product governs the amount of abuse/gouging/manipulating we are willing to tolerate from those lucky industries. Particularly in an industry that unlike many is driven by speculation that somehow benefits allot of people in many different stages from production to retail.

[stateofidleness]

$4.20 for 92octane in TX... sigh...

[Jager]

$4.59 in California.

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

I think the statements re. EPA fine levies is an oversimplification of what they actually do. They are not a Watchdog Agency, or strictly, an Enforcement Agency. In fact, that's one of the lesser functions of the Agency.

EPA is a pro-active Agency created to develop ways we can lessen the impact on the Environment and to aid Industry, State and Local Governments, as well as Individuals in achieving these goals. The Star Energy Compliance Program to name just one.

Having said that, EPA has levied some tremendous fines. They even have a statement in their charter which says that they cannot grant immunity and must even levy Fines on Companies who voluntarily come forward to report EPA violations, even if these violations have already been voluntarily corrected. That would seem to make any alleged collusion suspect.

We're all worried about the too high a price for gasoline, but consider this 20 year comparison of the avg. data about the US Car Market comparing 1987 to today:

• Avg. Fuel Economy (MPG)
  
  1987 - 22.1
  2006 - 21.0
  
  Avg. Weight (Lbs.)
  
  1987 - 3320
  2006 - 4142
  
  Avg. Horsepower
  
  1987 - 118
  2006 - 219
  
  Avg. 0-60 MPH (Sec.)
  
  1987 - 13.1
  2006 - 9.7
  
  % Cars/Trucks
  
  1987 - 72/28
  2006 - 50/50

This is sourced from the most recent issue of Panorama who sourced it from an EPA report: EPA Light Duty Automotive and Fuel Economy Trends 1975 - 2006.

Today's cars are 5% less fuel efficient, 30% heavier, have 186% more Horsepower and are approx. 30% faster in acceleration. Now did Industry force all this upon us or are they just producing what the Market demands?

We complain about Fuel costs, while at the same time, out of the other corner of our mouths praise Super/Turbochargers, Go-Fast Exhaust and Intake systems, Steroidal Power Chips, and the like. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. Who affects the cost of Fuel more than we do?...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

PS BTW, not a MM fan either...

[Brucelee]

"This is sourced from the most recent issue of Panorama who sourced it from an EPA report: EPA Light Duty Automotive and Fuel Economy Trends 1975 - 2006.

Today's cars are 5% less fuel efficient, 30% heavier, have 186% more Horsepower and are approx. 30% faster in acceleration. Now did Industry force all this upon us or are they just producing what the Market demands?

We complain about Fuel costs, while at the same time, out of the other corner of our mouths praise Super/Turbochargers, Go-Fast Exhaust and Intake systems, Steroidal Power Chips, and the like. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. Who affects the cost of Fuel more than we do?..."


Bingo!

[Perfectlap]

I rely on public transportation for 90% of the driven miles I travel.
If I had to commute daily via car I would not hesitate in buying a Prius.
BoxsterS for weekends only.
I think we need to start charging people gas prices base on the cars they
drive. Desperate times call for bla bla bla

[z12358]

1. Oil companies don't need to manipulate oil and gas prices in the open markets in order to turn a profit. What their lobbies ensure is that there will always be a profit for them no matter where those prices are. The power of those lobbies extends from as close as tax subsidies at home, to as far as influencing US foreign policy to act as a carrot and a stick to the countries auctioning their energy assets to these companies.

2. Apart from the enormous executive pay packages (which are wrong and undeserved but that's a different subject wider than the issue at hand) if one believes these companies have the game rigged in their favor (which they have), free markets allow for their shares to be bought in the open market so anyone could benefit from that edge (fair or unfair).

3. It is only fair for the users of gasoline (same as all other polluters) to pay to society for the damage they are doing to it. Clean environment is a resource (asset) equally owned by every citizen. The ones that are depleting these assets need to pay a tax (reimburse the rest) for the damage done. The reimbursement should equal the cost of reversing the damage done to the resource. There are studies done to estimate this cost but we could start with a 100% tax on gas and invest the proceeds in research on cleaner sources of energy, and take it form there. The Kyoto Treaty tried to apply this simple principle on a global scale but...

4. The US automobile and oil lobbies have influenced policy for so long (decades) that now it may be socially prohibitive (recessions, unrests, etc.) for all polluters to pay for the damage they are causing to the environment (millions of lower class commuters that depend on their car and cheap gas for their livelihood). Without the influence of these lobbies, and starting from the New Deal onwards the optimal way would have been for US to invest much more in public transport infrastructure instead of highways and roads for individual vehicles. Now we are all paying the price for the bias in those historical policy decisions. These lobbies have even influenced marketing and through movies, books, magazine articles have brainwashed people to think of public transport as something "lowly", "unindividualistic", "for poor people", "against the American free spirit", "call of the open highway", etc. They are still as powerful as ever. Campaign finance reform should address their influence but theres' no one to push things in the right direction, yet.

Z.