Are my tires supposed to rotate on the rim?
 

Hey everyone -

So I've been chasing down this vibration issue, and something I noticed when taking my car to get the rims checked for any dents was that my center caps which I had recently aligned perfectly were now misaligned. So, to double check I used a piece of chalk and marked a straight line on each tire down to the center of the wheel. Much to my surprise, both wheels on my passenger side had rotated almost 360 degrees over the course of a 20 minute drive.

Is this normal? Could this be causing my vibration issue at highway speeds and overly jerky steering on poor roads?

So, you think your tires are spinning on the rim, as opposed to your center caps spinning in the wheel?

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It is completely normal for a tire to rotate on the rim (to some degree). With that being said, 360 deg in 20 mins seems somewhat excessive.

And yes, this could easily cause an out of balance situation. The wheel and tire are balanced with the tire at a certain location. If the tire was to creep around the rim, then the weight might not be in the correct location in relation to the tire causing an out of balance condition.

A better way to check this is to mark the tire at the location of the valve stem and then check later to see if the mark on the tire has moved in relation to the valve stem.

I'm pretty certain, but I'll try again tomorrow by marking the valve stem.

Good idea - I'll retest again tomorrow and see if it is still just as bad. What could be causing this? An issue with how the tire was mounted? Or maybe a defect with the rim?

While I won't argue with stone, I would clarify that, while it may happen, it's not supposed to.
In my experience, a tire slipping on a rim is caused by under inflation, combined with aggressive driving.

If a tire has rotated on a wheel, it is no longer balanced.

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Tire are at 29 psi in the front and 36 in the rear, cold. My drive today was not aggressive - just from Home Depot back to home, kept her under 4k rpm the whole time.

wow! tire should not slip or move around the wheels/rim. Like other mentioned if too low tire pressure and aggressive driving will make that happen. But with 29psi and just driving on local street, tire should not slip from the rim.

With a clean rough bead and proper mounting a tire should not move on the rim under normal driving. Drag race cars have this issue on hard launches but thats with 500+ hp and sticky rubber

Drag race cars with 500hp don't have this problem any longer, hehe. We used to have this problem, when we were using bias ply tires. But with the advent of drag radials, it takes a lot more than 500hp to spin the tire on the rim.
Offroad / rock crawlers have this problem a ton, because they air down to 8-12psi. That's why they have what's called a "beadlock" on them.... because they don't want tires spinning on the wheel either.

Again: if your tires are slipping on the wheel, this should be corrected.

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Yep - agree 100%.

Always chuckled when I ran Toyo Proxy R888s and how much they moved around a rim... particularly rear. I'd index when mounting new and see how quickly I could get one to rotate 360 degrees around...

God, I hope this solves my vibration issue... it has been driving me absolutely insane.

I'm guessing it took you more than 20 minutes?

While I love the idea of my car having 500+ hp, I'm gonna guess that is not the case... I'll get this looked at. Thanks!

I believe this was suggested in your other thread, but I would recommend seeing if you can find someone/someplace that would let you briefly borrow a set of replacement wheels (for at least your fronts) to confirm that your vibration issue lies with either your rims or tires.

And for the record, I'd have never guessed that your tires were spinning on the rims. Good catch... :)

I seriously doubt yours tires are rotating on the rim. I've never heard of it and I've been around cars and tires a long time.

It does happen.
If he chalked them, it's kind of hard to mistake.

I found it hard to believe too, but I cannot think of any other reason why the chalk marks would be moving.

Are you saying you put a continuous line of chalk on both the tire and the wheel, and after driving some distance the chalk line "split" into two lines on the same tire/wheel?

Or are you saying you marked lines on your front and rear tires, and after driving they are no longer aligned in the same direction? This instance, along with center caps, are impossible to keep aligned from front to rear because your front and rear tires are different sizes. And they won't stay aligned passenger side to driver side, because when you make a turn the outside wheels turn more than the inside wheels.

But if it's the first case, where the single line on one tire/wheel splits into two, that's freakin weird man.

You know, I think I need to re-do my test. I had some doubts while I was falling asleep last night and this morning I checked and my center caps are a bit loose on that side compared to the other. I'll re-check tonight and report back.

Don't give any more thought to the center caps and their orientation.

1. Make a mark on the tire next to the valve stem
2. Drive
3. Check mark
4. That's it.

Will do today - Thanks.

Hehehe, I'll refer you back to Post Number 2, way down at the bottom of this thread. :-).
Yeah, center caps rotating in your wheels is very, very common. Tires rotating around the rim is not. One is problematic, the other is not. :-)

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I aligned my center caps with the valve stem, as is correct for concours judging. Goes back in history for the point of the crest pointing to the valve stem so pit crew could find the stem immediately. How many of us are tall, and bent over to look for the valve stem? Depends on the type of wheel. Plus, if the center caps have been removed and swapped many times they can loosen up. The plastic ones will actually melt off the wheel under hot track conditions, and fall off.

Yup.... I am not a smart man. Haha. I'll report back, but I don't think this is the issue anymore... back to the drawing board.... God damn it.

Sunnuva!

No way man, you'll never hear me say you're not smart.... I tell people all the time that the only stuff I know is because I broke it once. Haha

Let us know what you find.

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+ 1

A very true statement that I relate to it as well :rolleyes:

Haha yeah they're not spinning. I guess it's onto the next idea... man this shake is driving me insane. Almost makes me want to sell the car.

Well in that case, I'm going to be a genius one day with all the mistakes I've made :)

During an interview once, an employer asked me what one thing I would expect from position...I responded "The freedom to fail, perhaps even catastrophically...for that freedom will allow me to produce spectacular results; in the alternative, I'd be a perfectly competent and average employee, but personally I'd rather be stellar than mediocre." I was hired on the spot.

That's a great answer - I'm a high school teacher and I try to teach the kids that they don't have to get it right away, but they'll only get it if they try to learn from their mistakes. It's hard in the Bay Area where everyone is expected to succeed immediately, but I hope that some of them take it to heart and try to be life-long learners. As I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate the process of learning something new. Working on this car has definitely been challenging at times, but just looking back from when this issue started, I've learned so much and I'll continue to do. However, I think I'd be happy with the issue being resolved for now haha.

Thanks for the help anyway.

brilliant. going on my wall. with the attribution: "MWS"

I would have hired you. I never had a prospective employee Say anything remotely as appropriate for a job interview.


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Im resurrecting this thread, 'cuz I was able to measurably view something I said wasn't likely. So, I'm eating my words here, as publicly as i said them. (It's only right)

Today was my first time using NITTO NT01 tires at the track. In an effort to monitor how far over onto the sidewalk I might be rolling (to help decide what pressures I wanted) I put a chalk line on the sidewall and up onto the tread.

Remembering this thread, I thought "huh..... I'll just line them up with the valve stems, and see if they move at all".

Well..... they did. Especially the rears, as one might expect, but the fronts did too.

Im never paying to have track wheels / tires balanced ever again.

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When did you get them mounted? If it was less than a day before the track day, maybe the lube the tire busters used wasn't dried and it allowed the tire to rotate on the rim. Although I have to say that I've had tires mounted the same day (sometimes only an hour before I was on track) and never had a problem.

How about the paint on those wheels? Were they painted with no tires on them, and the paint is on the part of the wheel that contacts the tires (but that would only be on one side)?

Just trying to come up with reasons your tires moved on the wheels.

Mounted about 10 days ago. No paint on the bead. (I've got a pretty cool method for that, which includes a pack of playing cards, hahaha)

So im told this is, actually, quite common. Though I'd have never believed it.

I have to think it happens when they're cold, with low pressures (beggining of a session). I started my first session at 28, and the tires climbed to 40psi. So I bled them to 34. The next session they climbed back to 37, so I bled them again to 34.

Then there was lunch, and an extended delay (long story involving being recruited as an instructor for a beginner). The ambient temp dropped, and I was parked in the garages where it was cool anyway.

So it's quite probable that the pressures were QUITE low when I went out the last session. That could be when it occurred.

I dunno. I'm grasping for a reasonable explanation too.

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this doesn't help the discussion, BUT I had a nicely modified 74 Pontiac Grand Prix with a 455 BITD (1979) and if I hopped on it, the rims would spin and this would burn up the bead and ruin my tires. it just got worse and worse.

A common problem for off-roaders, too. We air-down (waaaay down) and then the wheel spins in the tire and destroys it. That's why God invented the Bead-lock.



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New product idea for Rennline! Boxster Bead-Locks.

Improper mounting of the tire, excessive or improper lube used to mount the tire. Slick mounting surface on the wheel.