Intermix is not the oil cooler - now what?

[Doug427]

I had made a post a short while back that changing the oil cooler had solved the intermix problem I have in my 2002 Boxster S. I finally got to drive it on a long trip (200+ miles), and returned home to find significant amounts of oil in the coolant expansion tank. As before, there is oil in the coolant expansion tank, but absolutely zero water in the oil. I had flushed this thing to within an inch of it's life using Prestone flush, very thoroughly draining and refilling 2 more times, then another refill with distilled water and pink coolant. Given the multiple flushes and refills done I think there's zero chance that the significant amount of oil I found in the tank is residual oil from the previous issue. It is the same issue - the intermix problem is the same as it was before. I had checked the old oil cooler as I had read others had done, and I did not get bubbles from the water side to the oil side of the cooler. However, I was hopeful the issue originated with the cooler, as the cooler bolts were less than finger tight when I went to change out the cooler and of course the o-rings.

The question now is how do I proceed? At the end of the day, this is about a $7K car, give or take. It's a very nice car with 105K miles on it. It just doesn't have a lot of value - none of them do. It's just the way the market is. I'm not looking to profit from the car, but logically I can't see tossing a rebuilt engine into the car that costs as much or more as the entire car is worth. I've done a thorough search, and so much of the info is incomplete or contradictory. Best I can tell, if an intermix is not the oil cooler, it's almost always a cracked cylinder head.

If not a cracked head, what else could it be? How do I diagnose a cracked head, and which head it is? Do I need to remove the engine to check and replace a head? What are my options and anticipated costs for the various options?

I appreciate any help and direction you guys can give. Thanks.

[azlvr]

Had the same problem so I pulled the motor, pulled the heads, had them pressure tested then sent out for repair. Mine was a 2001 S and really liked the car so I spent the money (and much more). If you want a profit it may be tough.

[Brian in Tucson]

You have to find the source of the oil & fix it or the car is just a rolling chassis. No value to speak of. Have you thought about taking it to a competent Indie shop for diagnosis and inspection?

What year and trim level is the car (base or S?)

Sorry man, sounds like a nightmare (and maybe a lost cause.)

[seningen]

Originally Posted by Doug427

I had made a post a short while back that changing the oil cooler had solved the intermix problem I have in my 2002 Boxster S. I finally got to drive it on a long trip (200+ miles), and returned home to find significant amounts of oil in the coolant expansion tank. As before, there is oil in the coolant expansion tank, but absolutely zero water in the oil. I had flushed this thing to within an inch of it's life using Prestone flush, very thoroughly draining and refilling 2 more times, then another refill with distilled water and pink coolant. Given the multiple flushes and refills done I think there's zero chance that the significant amount of oil I found in the tank is residual oil from the previous issue. It is the same issue - the intermix problem is the same as it was before. I had checked the old oil cooler as I had read others had done, and I did not get bubbles from the water side to the oil side of the cooler. However, I was hopeful the issue originated with the cooler, as the cooler bolts were less than finger tight when I went to change out the cooler and of course the o-rings.

The question now is how do I proceed? At the end of the day, this is about a $7K car, give or take. It's a very nice car with 105K miles on it. It just doesn't have a lot of value - none of them do. It's just the way the market is. I'm not looking to profit from the car, but logically I can't see tossing a rebuilt engine into the car that costs as much or more as the entire car is worth. I've done a thorough search, and so much of the info is incomplete or contradictory. Best I can tell, if an intermix is not the oil cooler, it's almost always a cracked cylinder head.

If not a cracked head, what else could it be? How do I diagnose a cracked head, and which head it is? Do I need to remove the engine to check and replace a head? What are my options and anticipated costs for the various options?

I appreciate any help and direction you guys can give. Thanks.

The easiest thing to do is drop the engine and pull the heads -- it maybe visually obvious at that point. If not you can magniflux and possibly pressure test it cheap enough at a machine shop -- then you can consider your options from there.

Mike

[78F350]

I've never quite been in your situation and I don't know the actual details and cost. I have been in a lot of other situations and read of other's success and failures. The following is pure guesswork and not detailed research...

You should expect that it needs the engine pulled and have a head repaired. Probably take it to a shop for an expert opinion first to verify that it's likely a head and see which one. There are a lot of Boxsters around Houston, there must be a few good indy shops in the area. Not sure of the cost, but I'd guess at least $2.5k and more likely around $4k by the time it's back on the road.

A replacement '01 - '02 3.2L engine swap will probably cost at least $7k and likely about $10K 'out the door' from a good shop. $10,916.83 Later

If you are attached to the particular car and have cash, a rebuilt engine may make sense, but realistically you can buy another S model for less than you'd pay.
The most sensible and saddest solution: Stop putting money in and walk away. Sell it for a loss, before you get in deeper and lose more. Milky coolant.

My last suggestion and probably what I'd really do: Buy a collision salvage car and swap the engine myself. Still about $4k - $5k by the time it's in, but you can recover a lot of that by parting out the rest of the salvage car. Lots of time and garage space required. - to me it's 'recreation', not 'work'.

Best wishes, and we're here to help whichever way you take it.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by Doug427

I had made a post a short while back that changing the oil cooler had solved the intermix problem I have in my 2002 Boxster S. I finally got to drive it on a long trip (200+ miles), and returned home to find significant amounts of oil in the coolant expansion tank. As before, there is oil in the coolant expansion tank, but absolutely zero water in the oil. I had flushed this thing to within an inch of it's life using Prestone flush, very thoroughly draining and refilling 2 more times, then another refill with distilled water and pink coolant. Given the multiple flushes and refills done I think there's zero chance that the significant amount of oil I found in the tank is residual oil from the previous issue. It is the same issue - the intermix problem is the same as it was before. I had checked the old oil cooler as I had read others had done, and I did not get bubbles from the water side to the oil side of the cooler. However, I was hopeful the issue originated with the cooler, as the cooler bolts were less than finger tight when I went to change out the cooler and of course the o-rings.

The question now is how do I proceed? At the end of the day, this is about a $7K car, give or take. It's a very nice car with 105K miles on it. It just doesn't have a lot of value - none of them do. It's just the way the market is. I'm not looking to profit from the car, but logically I can't see tossing a rebuilt engine into the car that costs as much or more as the entire car is worth. I've done a thorough search, and so much of the info is incomplete or contradictory. Best I can tell, if an intermix is not the oil cooler, it's almost always a cracked cylinder head.

If not a cracked head, what else could it be? How do I diagnose a cracked head, and which head it is? Do I need to remove the engine to check and replace a head? What are my options and anticipated costs for the various options?

I appreciate any help and direction you guys can give. Thanks.

Don't know what you paid for your Box but now is the time to decide if you are in or out. 2000 & 2001 heads are the thinnest castings, so good chance you have a cracked head. Easy to confirm by removing spark plugs to see if any are unusually clean. If you are in you should drop engine, & remove both heads & have them repaired & rebuilt. A proper repair makes the heads much stronger.

[MWS]

My advice is before making any decisions is to (once and for all) find the problem. At this point, I'd seek expert "eyes on, hands on" diagnosis, either from a well qualified indy or Porsche dealer....and actually, if it were me, I'd go the dealer route hoping that they would be most experienced. It might cost a couple of bucks, but at least you will have the knowledge to proced wisely.

The last thing I would want to see is a new forum member with a story like "I bought this car dirt cheap because the previous owner thought it had a cracked head when it was actually bla-bla, a $50 fix." Good for them I suppose, but I'm sure would make your head explode.

And to lighten your day, while typing autocorrect kept trying to replace PREVIOUS with PERVIOUS...does it know something I don't???

[xr_guys]

I have to share you firsthand experience.

2002 Boxster S with 87K miles. Got it last year with similar issue. The previous owner complaint it was overheating and oil on the water (heavy milk shake or batter like consistency on the coolant reservoir) but no water on the oil side. The car run fine and no smell of coolant coming out the exhaust. The car sat for almost two year in this state, previous owner think he can fix it.

After buying the car, further investigation draining the coolant under the car and an obvious enlarge coolant houses I knew I was in deep trouble. Damage to the hoses is done on the cooling system, due to the length of time the oil is in contact with the rubber hoses. I proceed to disconnect the two primary hoses that connect to the two-aluminum pipe. I was further horrified to see the inside of the aluminum pipe was almost plug with the batter like coolant and oil mixture. I knew that much oil just didn’t come from a small leak to the oil heat exchanger. Two weeks of research and reading, they all point to the head cylinders cracking, very well documented.

So with this new information I decided to investigate to find answer why would the car developed over heating issue? This lead to another issue common to the Boxster by design that debris build up plugging the cooling fins of radiator making the cooling system inefficient. Pull the front bumper and you’ll see what I mean.

If you want to do it right, you’ll have to replace the entire rubber hoses on your cooling system including the heater core side. If not, highly probable you’ll crack the replacement engine or you new heads later due to burst hose. I must admit pulling the engine & tranny down is the easy part, getting to the rubber hoses and flushing the radiators is very time consuming. Cost wise I would recommend unloading the car, the cooling hoses alone total to about close to $500, you add the following items, water pump, IMS bearing, AOS, clutch, gaskets, spark plugs, o-rings and plastic hoses & IMS tool. The 2nd option is you’ll have to either source a used engine or rework the heads for ~ $1500 each plus the cost of head gasket kit and head bolts. Ohh don’t forget tools you may have to buy. It will add up quickly.

On the positive note, you’ll get to know this car very well. You won’t be afraid drive it hard because you can fix it. Good luck!

[Doug427]

I appreciate all the input guys. This is one of those frustrating damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. The car just isn't worth enough to sink a significant amount of money into. As mentioned above, at some point that's not real difficult to reach, it's cheaper to just scrap it and buy another complete car. Yet, it's worth just enough that it's financially painful to just scrap it.

The problem is the darned labor - at my age I just don't have it in me anymore to pull the engine alone. I would have to pay to have it done. Am I wrong in assuming that it's probably $1K to $2K just in labor for an engine swap? Once the cost of either a head repair or a used engine is tossed in, you're looking at $4K at best, or $7K and up at worst for repair this car, and that's about what it's worth. Again, I'm not trying to make money off this car, but to me it's just foolish to put a repair into a car that costs equal or more to the value of that car.

I'm thinking that as suggested I'll go speak to a indy shop about diagnosing the issue, even though I can't see what else it could possibly be now other than a cracked head. I'll place a mutually agreed upon cap on the cost of the diagnosis. If they reach that cap without a diagnosis then we stop and the car gets driven as is 'till it dies and gets scrapped. There's no water in the oil at all, it may very well run for years this way, who knows.....It runs fantastically, that's the infuriating part of this. It runs strong and it doesn't overheat at all. I drove it all day long the other day in 85 degree temps and it never budged off the 180 degree mark on the temp gauge and ran perfectly.

Other than a cracked head, does anyone have any other possible causes of the intermix they can think of that I can check out on my own that can cause this? This is just so disappointing, as I do like this car.

Lastly, can anyone suggest a competent, reasonably priced Indy shop in the Houston area?

[Brian in Tucson]

Originally Posted by Doug427

I appreciate all the input guys. This is one of those frustrating damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. The car just isn't worth enough to sink a significant amount of money into. As mentioned above, at some point that's not real difficult to reach, it's cheaper to just scrap it and buy another complete car. Yet, it's worth just enough that it's financially painful to just scrap it.

The problem is the darned labor - at my age I just don't have it in me anymore to pull the engine alone. I would have to pay to have it done. Am I wrong in assuming that it's probably $1K to $2K just in labor for an engine swap? Once the cost of either a head repair or a used engine is tossed in, you're looking at $4K at best, or $7K and up at worst for repair this car, and that's about what it's worth. Again, I'm not trying to make money off this car, but to me it's just foolish to put a repair into a car that costs equal or more to the value of that car.

I'm thinking that as suggested I'll go speak to a indy shop about diagnosing the issue, even though I can't see what else it could possibly be now other than a cracked head. I'll place a mutually agreed upon cap on the cost of the diagnosis. If they reach that cap without a diagnosis then we stop and the car gets driven as is 'till it dies and gets scrapped. There's no water in the oil at all, it may very well run for years this way, who knows.....It runs fantastically, that's the infuriating part of this. It runs strong and it doesn't overheat at all. I drove it all day long the other day in 85 degree temps and it never budged off the 180 degree mark on the temp gauge and ran perfectly.

Other than a cracked head, does anyone have any other possible causes of the intermix they can think of that I can check out on my own that can cause this? This is just so disappointing, as I do like this car.

Lastly, can anyone suggest a competent, reasonably priced Indy shop in the Houston area?

I think you're badly underestimating costs. Changing out an engine, de gunking the cooling system, replacing hoses, and a "while your in there" list is gonna be a bunch more than $2500 in just labor.

[gabedrummin]

What part of Houston do you live in ? I live in spring and have found someone that works on Porsche's . His labor rates seem fair. He has worked on my Jeep and I am pleased with his work.The company is called UB Tuning off of Spring Cypress. There is another place called Lucas automotive That works on Porsche but he is much more expensive . I refuse to go to the dealer after they put a hole in my top.

[Brian in Tucson]

Originally Posted by Doug427

The problem is the darned labor - at my age I just don't have it in me anymore to pull the engine alone. I would have to pay to have it done.

Don't take anything I say as trying to shame you. How old are you? Are you in bad shape? I ask because this winter, I changed out the motor in my 01 base. All by myself, in pain most of the time because of arthritis. I'm 66 and kinda in lousy shape. I could do it all again, and it'd be easier. But I'm kind of burned out.

The thing is, Doug, if you have the space and the tools, it doesn't have to be done all at once, not in a few days, or even weeks. Off and on it took me almost 3 months. I've learned a lot, tho I'm not in any better shape, but I could probably do it in 3 or 4 weeks. Lots faster with a lift. If you can do it yourself in whatever time it takes, you cost is just for an engine and all the "while you're in there" goodies you'll want to do.

[seningen]

Originally Posted by Doug427

I appreciate all the input guys. This is one of those frustrating damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. The car just isn't worth enough to sink a significant amount of money into. As mentioned above, at some point that's not real difficult to reach, it's cheaper to just scrap it and buy another complete car. Yet, it's worth just enough that it's financially painful to just scrap it.

The problem is the darned labor - at my age I just don't have it in me anymore to pull the engine alone. I would have to pay to have it done. Am I wrong in assuming that it's probably $1K to $2K just in labor for an engine swap? Once the cost of either a head repair or a used engine is tossed in, you're looking at $4K at best, or $7K and up at worst for repair this car, and that's about what it's worth. Again, I'm not trying to make money off this car, but to me it's just foolish to put a repair into a car that costs equal or more to the value of that car.

I'm thinking that as suggested I'll go speak to a indy shop about diagnosing the issue, even though I can't see what else it could possibly be now other than a cracked head. I'll place a mutually agreed upon cap on the cost of the diagnosis. If they reach that cap without a diagnosis then we stop and the car gets driven as is 'till it dies and gets scrapped. There's no water in the oil at all, it may very well run for years this way, who knows.....It runs fantastically, that's the infuriating part of this. It runs strong and it doesn't overheat at all. I drove it all day long the other day in 85 degree temps and it never budged off the 180 degree mark on the temp gauge and ran perfectly.

Other than a cracked head, does anyone have any other possible causes of the intermix they can think of that I can check out on my own that can cause this? This is just so disappointing, as I do like this car.

Lastly, can anyone suggest a competent, reasonably priced Indy shop in the Houston area?

Your estimates above are pretty close (maybe a bit low).

One other source of intermix is one you really don't want to see, and that's a cracked cylinder liner. That's toss the block time. Yes it can be fixed -- but sleeving the block is way too expensive.

If you are going to keep the car and the intermix has been happening for awhile, if there is coolant in the oil -- your bearings will be chemically attacked by the anti-freeze. You can read all I did to my old Boxster S at Lone Star Refurbished Porsche Motorworks

I have a nearly complete 2001 S engine -- but I've got so much money into it, I can't sell it.

Mike

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by gabedrummin

What part of Houston do you live in ? I live in spring and have found someone that works on Porsche's . His labor rates seem fair. He has worked on my Jeep and I am pleased with his work.The company is called UB Tuning off of Spring Cypress. There is another place called Lucas automotive That works on Porsche but he is much more expensive . I refuse to go to the dealer after they put a hole in my top.

I'm in Kingwood. Thanks for the recommendation, I've had guys give me two others as well - Motorwerks in Houston and Modern Air Cooled (they work on water cooled as well). They're in Houston as well. Guess I'll ring each up and go forward from there.

[Geof3]

Is there ANY possibility you didn't install the oil cooler correctly? Pinched an o-ring... something? How did you flush and bleed?

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by xr_guys

I have to share you firsthand experience.

2002 Boxster S with 87K miles. Got it last year with similar issue. The previous owner complaint it was overheating and oil on the water (heavy milk shake or batter like consistency on the coolant reservoir) but no water on the oil side. The car run fine and no smell of coolant coming out the exhaust. The car sat for almost two year in this state, previous owner think he can fix it.

After buying the car, further investigation draining the coolant under the car and an obvious enlarge coolant houses I knew I was in deep trouble. Damage to the hoses is done on the cooling system, due to the length of time the oil is in contact with the rubber hoses. I proceed to disconnect the two primary hoses that connect to the two-aluminum pipe. I was further horrified to see the inside of the aluminum pipe was almost plug with the batter like coolant and oil mixture. I knew that much oil just didn’t come from a small leak to the oil heat exchanger. Two weeks of research and reading, they all point to the head cylinders cracking, very well documented.

So with this new information I decided to investigate to find answer why would the car developed over heating issue? This lead to another issue common to the Boxster by design that debris build up plugging the cooling fins of radiator making the cooling system inefficient. Pull the front bumper and you’ll see what I mean.

If you want to do it right, you’ll have to replace the entire rubber hoses on your cooling system including the heater core side. If not, highly probable you’ll crack the replacement engine or you new heads later due to burst hose. I must admit pulling the engine & tranny down is the easy part, getting to the rubber hoses and flushing the radiators is very time consuming. Cost wise I would recommend unloading the car, the cooling hoses alone total to about close to $500, you add the following items, water pump, IMS bearing, AOS, clutch, gaskets, spark plugs, o-rings and plastic hoses & IMS tool. The 2nd option is you’ll have to either source a used engine or rework the heads for ~ $1500 each plus the cost of head gasket kit and head bolts. Ohh don’t forget tools you may have to buy. It will add up quickly.

On the positive note, you’ll get to know this car very well. You won’t be afraid drive it hard because you can fix it. Good luck!

I've already spent a lot of time in and lots of money on the cooling system. It looks remarkably clean. Lots of the hoses as well as the water pump were just changed. I can't begin to tell you how thoroughly I flushed this system out last week. Even now with the oil in the system, it doesn't overheat at all, not even close. It's pegged dead on at 180 degrees, never wavers once it reached temp. If I fix this engine or replace it, I would certainly do a clutch (parts are fairly cheap) and also a IMS bearing replacement. I'd probably do the Pelican kit. It'll work just fine, and it'll last just fine as well. I've already got a new AOS with hoses, plugs, plug tube o-rings, etc on hand that I had planned to install as soon as I got to it. I have a complete set of brake rebuild items on hand, caliper decals and paint, pads, sensors, rotors, etc. I also have a complete 2003 large glass window top ready to go on. I have all this cool stuff, and now maybe no car to put it all on.

I really have to get more info on what's wrong, and thoroughly think it over. It's early in the process, but I seem to find myself coming to grips with two things - I'm leaning more toward fixing it, and coming to the unhappy conclusion that I'll probably have to do it myself. More on that below in an answer to Brian. I don't know if I fix this engine (it runs REALLY well) or replace it with another used one. A rebuild just isn't going to happen. That's where the repair shop comes in - I need to know what's wrong. Looking at the history of these engines, it's much more than likely it's a cracked head. I changed the oil last week or so. It was very clean, no evidence of water in the oil or filter at all - zero. Also, I closely inspected the filter, then ran a magnet through it. No evidence of metal at all. This isn't an easy decision at all. I bought this car to have fun, but damn, this isn't fun at all!

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by Brian in Tucson

Don't take anything I say as trying to shame you. How old are you? Are you in bad shape? I ask because this winter, I changed out the motor in my 01 base. All by myself, in pain most of the time because of arthritis. I'm 66 and kinda in lousy shape. I could do it all again, and it'd be easier. But I'm kind of burned out.

The thing is, Doug, if you have the space and the tools, it doesn't have to be done all at once, not in a few days, or even weeks. Off and on it took me almost 3 months. I've learned a lot, tho I'm not in any better shape, but I could probably do it in 3 or 4 weeks. Lots faster with a lift. If you can do it yourself in whatever time it takes, you cost is just for an engine and all the "while you're in there" goodies you'll want to do.

I hate to say it, Brian, but it's looking more and more like this is the only answer - do it myself. I can't tell you how much I DON'T want to do this. I still love tinkering with cars, but my heavy work job days are well past me. I used to swap engines in my younger days on a moments notice, but that was American muscle cars and front engine cars. This is my first mid engine car that drops out the bottom, and I'm not looking forward to that at all. If this were one of my old Corvettes or my current Cobra, the engine would be out already. I have a very complete set of tools, and even a 4 post lift at home. I'm not home now, I'm traveling for work, so I can't look, but my question is has anyone dropped an engine out of a Boxster on a 4 post lift? Will the engine fit down through the two main ramps that the car sits on? If it will, then this is instantly a much more palatable job.

Laying on my back doing this is a much different picture. My 60 year old body has a bad back that I deal with daily, and my energy level is somewhat depleted by a past dance with chemo and radiation. No whining, it just is what it is. For the actual dropping and lifting moments in and out, I'd need a second set of hands, which aren't readily available to me, but I can probably drum up someone for that. The guy I can probably get to help me for an hour to drop and a hour to get it back up to the car doesn't know a lug nut from a steering wheel, but I suppose he really doesn't need to.

I'd be much more willing to do it myself if I could do it on my four post lift. If any one knows for sure if this can or can't be done, please let me know.

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by Geof3

Is there ANY possibility you didn't install the oil cooler correctly? Pinched an o-ring... something? How did you flush and bleed?

I'm reasonably confident I got it right. I was super careful. As for flushing - it went sort of like this. Completely drain the system - remove drain plug, disconnect two main radiator tube hoses and heater hoses back by the engine, drain thoroughly. Heater core valve was opened prior to all this. Run garden hose through all hoses, in both directions, until water runs clear. Hook everything up, fill with water using vacuum fill tube. Bring car up to temp, drive it for about one hour. Bring home, and do it all again as described above.

Next day, bring car up to temp, and drive again for another hour. Drain and flush again as above. Refill with water and Prestone flush with oil degreaser. Again, filled with vacuum refill tool, as always. Bring to temp and drive multiple times for about 90 min total. Completely drain and flush with clean water until all runs clear. Refill using vacuum refill tool with distilled water and pink coolant, 50/50 mix.

I thought I was done. I guess not.......

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by seningen

Your estimates above are pretty close (maybe a bit low).

One other source of intermix is one you really don't want to see, and that's a cracked cylinder liner. That's toss the block time. Yes it can be fixed -- but sleeving the block is way too expensive.

If you are going to keep the car and the intermix has been happening for awhile, if there is coolant in the oil -- your bearings will be chemically attacked by the anti-freeze. You can read all I did to my old Boxster S at Lone Star Refurbished Porsche Motorworks

I have a nearly complete 2001 S engine -- but I've got so much money into it, I can't sell it.

Mike

Mike - is the shop you posted the link to your shop, or a shop that you've used? I can easily get the car to Austin if they're good and reasonably priced. The car runs flawlessly as it sits and doesn't overheat. I wouldn't hesitate to get in it right now and drive it on the highway for a couple of hours. There is ZERO water in the oil.

[seningen]

Originally Posted by Doug427

Mike - is the shop you posted the link to your shop, or a shop that you've used? I can easily get the car to Austin if they're good and reasonably priced. The car runs flawlessly as it sits and doesn't overheat. I wouldn't hesitate to get in it right now and drive it on the highway for a couple of hours. There is ZERO water in the oil.

It’s my buddy’s shop, Danny at Silent Automotive.
We partnered up for a few years, but my real job took off, so I do less wrenching and focus on driving. He still does the wrenching I don’t have time for.

He’s reasonably priced, very good, but takes his time.

Text Danny at 512-366-0627

Mike