Big Brother getting Bigger... again... - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

MNBoxster · 08-21-2006, 04:35 PM

Hi,

There is a proposed requirement by the NHTSA that beginning with the 2008 model year, all cars sold in the US contain an EDR (Electronic Data Recorder). These boxes can record any number of realtime variables such as speed and exact position of your Car (through GPS links to your Car's NAV system), whether you signal your turns, wear your seatbelt, etc.

This has the potential for cost-cutting, revenue enhancing States, Counties, and local Municipalities to institute automated ticketing systems for any number of driving infractions.

It will all be presented under the auspices of increasing Public Safety a'la Nonviolators have nothing to worry about, which a majority of the Brain dead Public will eagerly support.

Parts of such a system are already being employed by Car Rental agencies. Soon, Insurance Companies will also use this information in not only settling collision and Injury claims, but also in determining what rates you should pay.

Read more about this very intrusive Privacy issue here: http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a/whos-watching/20060816150109990001 Be sure to read the article and write to the NHTSA to express your opposition with the link provided in the article...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

blue2000s · 08-21-2006, 04:45 PM

Absolutely outragous. George Orwell was just off by a few years, but it's still coming true.

I understand that there is still litigation going on in a case where a car rental agency fined a customer for speeding in a car monitored by GPS.

FIG · 08-21-2006, 10:52 PM

Sounds pretty scary

BentleyJava · 08-22-2006, 05:11 AM

People will find a way to hack it.

According to mine, I'll be driving everywhere at 10mph.

Brucelee · 08-22-2006, 05:44 AM

This is why I am a libertarian.

It starts with a good idea, then ..................!

Perfectlap · 08-22-2006, 06:43 AM

if this is implemented people should be informed that their actions in motor vehicle accidents will be analyzed. This should make people drive safer unless they are stupid and the black box will say that they floored it when the light turned yellow.
Using a seat belt is common sense. If you wish to invoke your right not wear one be my guest. Just don't go flying through my windshield.
and as far as speeding maybe we all need to start driving a little slower if so many of have no idea how to drive our 4 ton SUV at warp speed. I have probably 30X's the driving skill of the average motorist yet it seems like I'm the one always being passed by a 80 pound woman in that 4 ton SUV talking on her cell phone
(I would love for the black box to pickup who is yapping without a head set.)

08-22-2006, 06:47 AM

I have no problem with this proposal.

Maybe it will help track a potential terrorist, stop a car-jacking, recover a stolen car or aid in the rescue of an accident victim or child kidnapping.

I have nothing to hide. Hell, they can put a micro-chip in me if they want!

RandallNeighbour · 08-22-2006, 07:27 AM

Just imagine the hayday the insurance companies will have with this information...

"Dear Sir:

Due to information recorded on your black box, we have determined that it is not in the best interest of our shareholders to insure your Porsche Boxster. The data reflects that you exceeded the speed limit on 219 occurrences in the past 12 months.

Sincerely,

State Farm Insurance Companies"

blue2000s · 08-22-2006, 08:19 AM

I can't believe some of you think this would be a good idea. Someone tracking where you are going, what you are doing and how you got there? How do you know who that person is and what they're using the information for? If you volunteer to be tracked, that's one thing, but the government telling you that you will be tracked is totally out of line.

"I have nothing to hide" isn't the point and is very short sighted, you are an American and as such you have rights to privacy and free will. These rights get chipped away with every new law intended to "protect" us. You could be very safe if the government mandated how you live your life, but what kind of a life is that? Come on people, look at the big picture!

08-22-2006, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I can't believe some of you think this would be a good idea. Someone tracking where you are going, what you are doing and how you got there? How do you know who that person is and what they're using the information for? If you volunteer to be tracked, that's one thing, but the government telling you that you will be tracked is totally out of line.

OK, maybe I'm naive, but why should I care about someone knowing were I am and how I got there?

08-22-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

Just imagine the hayday the insurance companies will have with this information...

"Dear Sir:

Due to information recorded on your black box, we have determined that it is not in the best interest of our shareholders to insure your Porsche Boxster. The data reflects that you exceeded the speed limit on 219 occurrences in the past 12 months.

Sincerely,

State Farm Insurance Companies"

And Randall, imagine the following letter another customer may receive:

"Dear Sir:

Due to information recorded on your black box, we have determined that you will receive a 15% 'Good Driving Discount' for your Porsche Boxster. The data reflects that you have been an excellent driver in the past 12 months.

Sincerely,

State Farm Insurance Companies"

I can go both ways!

blue2000s · 08-22-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

OK, maybe I'm naive, but why should I care about someone knowing were I am and how I got there?

This is just a very small part of a much larger issue. It's called privacy and it's your right, whether you choose to exercise it or not.

JackG · 08-22-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

And Randall, imagine the following letter another customer may receive:

"Dear Sir:

Due to information recorded on your black box, we have determined that you will receive a 15% 'Good Driving Discount' for your Porsche Boxster. The data reflects that you have been an excellent driver in the past 12 months.

Sincerely,

State Farm Insurance Companies"

I can go both ways!

Problem with this whole scenario is that it depends on speed alone as being an indication of whether or not one is a safe driver.

Some of the worst drivers I've ever witnessed were also the slowest ones. Speed is not a reliable indicator, but it is one that will be misused if this ever really happens.

Sammy · 08-22-2006, 09:27 AM

I guess I'll never own a car newer than 2007... Oh well, I've always been a fan of the late 80's early 90's cars... Probably save me a lot of money to buy cheap older cars.

chows4us · 08-22-2006, 10:58 AM

Who cares?

No GPS, no tracking.

Alarmist crap. See http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/

Event recording has nothing to do with seeing where your speeding.

Then again, don't the new computers in cars like Porsche and Lotus record every bit of the RPM usage so they can use it as a means to deny warranty coverage? Don't know.

berj · 08-22-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

OK, maybe I'm naive, but why should I care about someone knowing were I am and how I got there?

Because one day something legal you do today may be declared illegal. And then someone can go back on all of the records they have for you and determine that you used to do alot of that thing and decide you're a threat of some sort.

Or.

every day you happen to stop at this really great hot-dog vendor and buy a hot dog. You pull your car up, get out.. buy a dog, eat it and get back on your way. Now.. as it turns out they find that said hot dog vendor is a terrorist/drug-dealer/general malcontent. Since they have nice records of you stopping there every day and buying a hot dog.. well.. you must be involved. Off for questioning you go.. maybe you'll be cleared.. but your reputation will be quite nicely tarnished.

The former may be a bit far fetched.. but I've seen the latter happen when the only records they have are visual sightings.. imagine how much more weight these sorts of accusations will have with cold, hard facts.

Now.. that's just when 'they' is a government organization who (let's give them the benifit of the doubt) are just doing what seems right. What if its someone intent on doing you harm? Just because your data is *supposed* to be used in some way.. doesn't mean that it can't and won't be used in another (eg the recent release of search requests by AOL).

Having something to hide isn't just about doing illegal things.. it's doing things that other people have no business knowing about. So what if I go and rent porn from the shop down the road? Should that mean that somone who hacks into the database that contains my travel information should be able to release that knowledge to the world?

I still put my mail in envelopes, I still close my door and windows at night, I still want privacy. It's really pretty simple.

Berj

08-22-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berj

Because one day something legal you do today may be declared illegal. And then someone can go back on all of the records they have for you and determine that you used to do alot of that thing and decide you're a threat of some sort.

Or.

every day you happen to stop at this really great hot-dog vendor and buy a hot dog. You pull your car up, get out.. buy a dog, eat it and get back on your way. Now.. as it turns out they find that said hot dog vendor is a terrorist/drug-dealer/general malcontent. Since they have nice records of you stopping there every day and buying a hot dog.. well.. you must be involved. Off for questioning you go.. maybe you'll be cleared.. but your reputation will be quite nicely tarnished.

The former may be a bit far fetched.. but I've seen the latter happen when the only records they have are visual sightings.. imagine how much more weight these sorts of accusations will have with cold, hard facts.

Now.. that's just when 'they' is a government organization who (let's give them the benifit of the doubt) are just doing what seems right. What if its someone intent on doing you harm? Just because your data is *supposed* to be used in some way.. doesn't mean that it can't and won't be used in another (eg the recent release of search requests by AOL).

Having something to hide isn't just about doing illegal things.. it's doing things that other people have no business knowing about. So what if I go and rent porn from the shop down the road? Should that mean that somone who hacks into the database that contains my travel information should be able to release that knowledge to the world?

I still put my mail in envelopes, I still close my door and windows at night, I still want privacy. It's really pretty simple.

Berj

Hi Berj, I guess these are all valid points, but just not a concern to me.

JackG · 08-22-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chows4us

Who cares?

No GPS, no tracking.

Alarmist crap. See http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/

Event recording has nothing to do with seeing where your speeding.

Then again, don't the new computers in cars like Porsche and Lotus record every bit of the RPM usage so they can use it as a means to deny warranty coverage? Don't know.

It seems you don't know a lot. In it's very basic form, it records your speed for a few moments before you unavoidably T-bone the vehicle that just illegally pulled out in your path. With the data from this EDR, the law tickets you for the accident (because you were doing 4mph over the limit), and the family sues you for the injury/death of their loved one who ran the stop sign/didn't look/was talking on the cell phone/etc.

While the first step of EDR doesn't report your location and speed constantly to your local sherriff's office, it is a significant first step in the process to do so.

Don't think it's possible? Did you ever think you were going to have to check your hair gel before you boarded your next flight?

MNBoxster · 08-22-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

OK, maybe I'm naive, but why should I care about someone knowing were I am and how I got there?

Hi,

Your cavalier attitude towards this is quite a surprise to me. You should care because it is your responsibility as a citizen to jealously defend the rights so many people who have gone before both strove and fought for.

True, it may not affect you, but you don't have the right to surrender it on behalf of others.

All intrusions into personal liberties have begun under the guise of something good such as Public Safety. Even the Nazi persecution of the Jews, Gypsies, Clergy, Handicapped and Homosexuals began as an interpretation of their existing legal system. That's how it took hold - it was sanctioned in Law.

And, both the Times and the Public are fickle, that is what may seem warranted today may be unecessary or unwise in the future. Take the Volstead Act (Prohibition) as an example.

I personally believe the country would be better off with a Ban on Handguns, that they do more Bad than Good. But in a discussion with a like-minded friend a few weekends back, I actually defended the practice.

My friend cited that the right to bear arms stemmed from the fact that at the time, the British had been comandeering homes and property at will and that citizens needed to defend them. But, he stated that this time had passed and therefore the need for bearing arms had become obsolete.

I argued that while he was essentially correct, that we no longer need to defend our homes and property from the govenment. But, what of the future? Who can say that this need won't arise at some future time? I believe that troublesome as this right to bear arms is in current times, that abolishing it would be even worse.

The same holds true of the fundamental right to privacy. In my lifetime, this right has been chipped away, slowly. I didn't need a Social Security Card as a kid, only when I enetered the Workforce. The Gov't. didn't access my Bank data to insure I was paying my Taxes, the Gov't. trusted it's citizens to rightfully support the Country. I didn't spend on average 6 hrs a day on some video camera somewhere. And, none of these things has made the country either better, or safer. No Privacy issues have been added, only taken away. This is another example which could have far reaching consequences, not only for Driving, but perhaps in many other facets of everyday life.

Suppose the Gov't. were to mandate EDRs in Refrigerators which read the bar codes of all the groceries you buy? Now suppose this data were accessed to determine what Social Security or Medicare benfits you should receive? You bought too much Bacon - sorry, Medicare won't cover any Cardiac, Stroke, or Circulatory medications or therapies because you did it to yourself! And, as these EDRs become more commonplace, the Gov't. won't even ask your permission anymore.

NO - Government does not have the right to usurp your liberties! And for what? So some Corporations can make more profit?

They get away with it because people are either too apothetic or too stupid to to realize the implications both near and long-term and fight for these rights. Once they're taken away, it will be near impossible to get them back!

What we need is to kick Socials Studies out of all the school ciricullums and reinstate Civics or Government Classes as a requirement. Chr*st, the people who best know how this country and government works are the immigrants trying to become citizens, they need to pass a test.

This is a bad piece of legislation and we should all take the time to write and oppose it. The Motoring Public has done quite nicely in the past 100 years without EDRs. It is an intrusion, it will up the price of vehicles, and it's only purpose is to make more profit for Corporations and allow the Gov't. to keep closer tabs on you, whether you're one of the Bad Guys or not!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

MNBoxster · 08-22-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berj

...every day you happen to stop at this really great hot-dog vendor and buy a hot dog. You pull your car up, get out.. buy a dog, eat it and get back on your way. Now.. as it turns out they find that said hot dog vendor is a terrorist/drug-dealer/general malcontent. Since they have nice records of you stopping there every day and buying a hot dog.. well.. you must be involved. Off for questioning you go.. maybe you'll be cleared.. but your reputation will be quite nicely tarnished...Having something to hide isn't just about doing illegal things.. it's doing things that other people have no business knowing about. So what if I go and rent porn from the shop down the road? Should that mean that somone who hacks into the database that contains my travel information should be able to release that knowledge to the world?

I still put my mail in envelopes, I still close my door and windows at night, I still want privacy. It's really pretty simple.

Berj

Hi,

WOW! Great analogy! I live in St. Paul/ Mpls. and on the West Side of St. Paul (the historical Mexican Community), there used to be this terrific Taco Van. One of my best friends is of Mexican decent and grew up in that neighborhood and we used to go all the time to get our Tacos there - Best in the City!

Anyway, I used to belong to a Thursday Night Poker Game frequented by several St. Paul Cops, a couple from the Narc and Vice Squads. One Thurs. one of them said "You know, we got you on a Surveillance Tape last week..." Surprised I asked why and he said that the Taco Van was a front for a Cocaine Dealer and that they had a surveillance camera on it all week. He then went on to say that it was lucky I didn't ask for a White Bean Taco, the codeword for a Gram of Coke. Said they nabbed the Dealer and 35 Customers from those tapes. The point is, your analogy is not at all far-fetched, it actually happened to me!

Luckily, I didn't even know about their illegal subsidiary and only visited it when I was hungry. But, upon asking, I was told the tape containing me buying Tacos cannot be erased or sealed, my Privacy, in this instance, will be forever invaded. This is why these EDRs are such a problem. Write in and voice your opposition!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99