Bad news from the mechanic - any insight greatly appreciated!
 

Hey guys,

I posted on here a while ago about some vibrations/judders I was feeling through my steering wheel that a few shops had been unable to diagnose. I took the car (2002 Boxster S with 85k miles) to a highly recommended Porsche specialist here in the Bay Area and he did a thorough - and I mean painstakingly thorough - inspection of everything the car needs. He scared me a bit with his list - I don't think he's suggesting I do all of it, but he said he could find $15k (!!!!) worth of stuff to do.

Here are the main things he mentioned needed doing - just hoping you guys could share some insight on fair-ish costs, just to make sure he doesn't try to screw me. His labor charge is $200 an hour, so I might not do everything at his place, but I'll probably have him do a couple of things. He said he'll call me tomorrow with some numbers.

1. He thinks vibration is caused by inner/outer tie rods and possibly strut mounts.
2. Rear passenger strut is leaking, suggests replacing all 4
3. Rear trailing arms need replacement according to him
4. Clutch and/or shift cables need to be replaced - this is the one that has me a little miffed. I did notice that the clutch was starting to get a little hard to push in, but it does not slip at all. Shifting into 2nd has been a little jerky recently, but I figured that it might be something to do with not having had the clutch fluid changed and I have no service records from the previous owner indicating that the fluid was changed. I probably won't have him do this one since he didn't say it's an immediate necessity, but I also don't want to risk damaging the transmission itself.

He mentioned other things like coil packs, spark plugs, and window regulators, brake pads and rotors, but I'm pretty confident that I can do those things myself.

Thank you guys for any insight you can shed on any of the above items.

IF you have the space and inclination, you can really do a lot of this stuff yourself. Changing out suspension parts is not rocket science and at $200 an hour, you can save a chunk of change! You will need an alignment after.

can't speak to the suspension work, but re the clutch:

- cables are a low failure rate item - potentially just an issue (often corrosion) where they join to the transmission - take some pics for us and we may be able to help further, as there is some aftermarket stuff out there to fix just what is broken and not replace the whole thing.
- clutch hard to push in may be as simple as a brake/clutch bleed (the clutch system is part of the brake system).
- clutch difficulty shifting into second is a transmission problem, not a clutch/cable/fluid problem. there is a simple fix for this ($100 part); search "porsche 2nd gear detent".

The 2nd gear problem fixed by the detent is popping out of gear, not for being hard to engage.

it pops out of gear because it is not engaged properly. same issue, same fix.

Is this the correct item?: https://www.ebay.com/i/112562832848?chn=ps

There is also a "shift arrester" I found - are there any pro/cons to either one to consider? This also looks pretty straight forward to do - would it be easy on jack stands or should I pay to borrow a lift? There's a place near me that charges $35/hour.

Ok, I'll ask him to do the brake/clutch flush/bleed first to see how that impacts the car. The previous owner claimed to have done the clutch recently - he didn't have paperwork, but he seemed like a trustworthy guy so I took him for his word. Maybe my bad, hopefully just the fluids that need to be changed and/or the 2nd gear detent.

How difficult are the rear struts in comparison to the front? The front seems relatively straight-forward, might just need to invest in an impact wrench for the top bolts.

Yes, the rears are a bit more difficult, mostly because of those pesky axles which need to be undone at the transmission flange. A long extension bar is your friend here. The other difficult thing is torquing the control arm nut: use the butt dyno torque wrench here, like just about everyone else. ;)
It’s a good job but not really that complicated. Good satisfaction feeling afterwards.

If you feel it thru the steering wheel 1st stop is a good wheel balancer that can remove wheels & test balance on a spin balancer.

Ain't it nice spending other peoples money?:ah:

nice font size. so every post in response to the op has been an effort to reduce initial cost, so your point is ... ?

It's just as likely your front end judder is a bent or out of balance wheel. Let's put this in perspective: replace the tie rods after 85k miles? Would you do that on a Toyota, or even a Chrysler product? Shucks, the car should be basically barely broke in.

Contrary to Porsche mechanics dreams, a leaky shock is not grounds for immediate replacement of said shock, much less all four. If the car isn't bouncing around, it's not an immediate problem. If you want to replace the leaky shock, do the pair on the same axle set. Then do the others at a later date.

This car has to get up on an alignment rack and see what's going on, check both the front and rear alignment.

The "very best" Porsche often seems like the one who can pad the bill the most.:dance:

He went into this "wonderful" mechanic for an answer to his front end judder and got a laundry list of everything but what was actually causing the problem.

Seems like checking the wheels for runout and checking the alignment would be the first things on the mechanics to do list.

FIRST STOP!!!!!!

Thank him for the diagnosis and get your work done elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Did nobody else read $200/hr labour? Ummmm no. Walk out. Dealer charges less

Lots of good stuff here!
My 2000 Box is in pretty good shape mechanically but I'll bet that I could still identify thousands of dollars worth of work. I've never replaced struts or chain tensioners or pads. Lots of stuff like that. Car runs great! I'll do the items as needed.

First off, Need to concentrate on resolving your initial complaint.
Next, change brake and clutch fluid and see how your clutch feels.
If you're not experiencing a brake problem (vibration when braking or wear sensor illuminated) wait on brakes. This is an easy DYI and even easier to plan for as opposed to something that has to be done right now.
Trailing arms. Amazing has the TRW trailing arms (track arms) for about $115 each. Easy driveway DYI (especially if you have an impact wrench). Maybe an hour on each side including raising the car and removing your wheel.
Coil packs/plugs...Any misfires reported? Check engine light on? If not, pass on this for now.
If you want, you can visually check coils for cracks when you have the wheel off doing the track arms. In fact, why not buy new new plugs and do them while the wheel is off? $40 for new plugs.
Window mechanism...pass for now unless YOU note a problem.
Frunk and trunk struts....$15 each and 5 minutes each to replace using a flat head screw driver. You don't have to replace all 4 at once. Replace whats needed (in pairs) so the trunk or frunk doesn't fall on your head!

What he said, 100%.

While all of those things are maintenance items, they usually aren't an issue at your mileage. Struts might be tired, but probably serviceable.

Two other things, not even close to being mentioned, and VERY likely an issue with your shifting problem are the shifter itself and the motor mount. At your car's age I can almost 100% promise your motor mount is shot. I have an 02s with 58k, mine was toast. Very common. The shifter is an easy, relatively cheap fix that can literally transform your car. If your shifter feels sloppy, then it could use a swap as well.

I don't bring my cars to a shop often, so maybe I'm just a bit ignorant here, but I don't see a problem. As a new customer bringing a car in for the first time, the shops I have used did a comprehensive check of the car, much like a PPI. I was given a list of recommended items to bring the car back to a factory-fresh baseline. The shops took time to go over the list and discuss each item: significance, urgency, and options.

I don't see how this shop has done anything but help speedyspaghetti get a better understanding of the condition of the car. I think they would be remiss if they did not give him a full list of their findings and recommendations. The next step should be discussing what needs to be done by the shop, what can be deferred, and what the owner can DIY.

That $15K is probably going to put it at a zero baseline for all maintenance with the Porsche recommended parts at $200/hr. Some new owners want that and will gladly pay. Should the shop only present that option to 'certain' customers?

Labor cost varies by shop and region. Here in Oklahoma, $200/hr would be high, but I see that number frequently on the Audi forums for East and West coast. Here I've paid around $125.

Take it to Custom Alignment in Mountain View. I think they are well equipped to diagnose your issue. I went to a Tech session once that he hosted for LPR PCA. I was impressed with the things they do. Race shops takes their customer cars to them for custom alignments and other specialized suspension work.

Porsche of Orlando charges $90 an hour on older models to try and keep customers who own cars as old as ours are.


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clutch
 

I agree with the afore mentioned advice - I will add a bit - ive had 2 boxsters, one was a 2000 S and sold it with 90k miles on it never had do to the clutch, I now have a 97 with 39k miles that just got a complete new everything- why the difference?? I have only had this car a year, less than 2500 miles put on by me - thePO(previous owner) wore the heck out of the clutch - chances are at 85 k miles you have a firm clutch due to the wear on the disc and the pressure plate and its nor working correctly anymore - do it before you burn up the flywheel too - that's $800 by itself!
- how long have you had this car? if you have never worn out a clutch but this one is going it may be due to previous owner wearing it out riding clutch, etc.
ps- my whole job including IMS bearing and hydraulics was $3200
my quote for all 4 bilitein B6 shocks and struts was $1,000 parts and labor
btw in 35 years of driving I have burned up one clutch - it was my '69 Austin Healey and the first gear was worn out( thanks to my sister's friend I bought the car from) and had to start out in 2nd gear, waited too long to get all that fixed and slipping the clutch like that will wear it out fast- I have not had that happen ever again, learned to shift properly- also now I have all new clutch and hydraulics in this Boxster it shifts like brand new, and now I really can tell how bad that disc was worn- previous owner never changed out the clutch fluid- yes it should be flushed just like the brakes.
$200 / hour is a joke- the guy that did my car recently charged $100, you can do all the front suspension stuff with a floor jack- go to pelican parts side on tech part and see all the step by step helpers for this job, I had the clutch done for me due to time and because I thought it was just the hydraulics initially and didn't want to mess with that- I will do all the suspension up front same as I did on my BMW recently and my P914 - as stated already its not really that complicated. -
Good luck-

Also, to the PO... if you haven't already, buy these two books: The latter you can find "used" for a bit less

https://www.amazon.com/Projects-Porsche-Boxster-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760335540/ref=sr_1_1/141-7315495-9560361?ie=UTF8&qid=1513899947&sr=8-1&keywords=101+projects+for+your+porsche+boxster

https://www.amazon.com/Porsche-Boxster-Service-Manual-1997-2004/dp/083761645X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513899998&sr=8-1&keywords=porsche+boxster+repair+manual

I had the wheels balanced on a road force machine twice and both places I took it to said they couldn't find any bends in the rim.

Thanks for the insight - really appreciate it. I brought the car to a different shop in the area - specializes in Porsche racing - they said it was my tires, replaced them and road force balanced the wheels, but that did not solve the vibration / judder.

Yeah I'll probably just do the rear shocks for now... I think I can do the front shocks by myself, and I kinda want to. Seems a little daunting since the most I've done on my cars is mounts and brakes, but I would like to learn more.

Admittedly, I should have brought it to an alignment first. I had my usual Porsche guy look at it, he didn't charge me anything, but he said he couldn't feel anything. 2nd place said the same thing, but I still feel it.

Bay Area everything is expensive... but yeah my usual Porsche guy is $120/hr and has great reviews on Yelp. I just wanted someone who could actually diagnose my problem since it has been driving me crazy. Usual shop and another shop couldn't diagnose it, my dad drove the car and said it felt normal to him, but I drive it every day and could definitely feel something was off.

Good ideas - thank you very much for the effort you put into your post... really helpful.

Do the brake/clutch fluid requiring bleeding? Or are they self-bleeding systems?

What are the best options for shifters? I know some people upgrade to the 996 shifter, and there's also the Numeric Racing short throw... but that's $700.

The first place I took the car to said the mount looked fine, but I'm guessing he didn't actually take it off to look at it - probably just wiggled it around. Might be worth it to at least take it off and look at it. 987 upgrade is pretty popular, right?

This is the 2nd suggestion I've had for them - I got a little turned off when I read some Yelp reviews saying that management changed there - have you been there recently?

Thank you for the time and effort - I really do appreciate it.

Yeah I've been driving stick for 6 years now, my first car was an 07 Mazdaspeed3 that I bought with 61k on the clock. I sold it at 133k and it was still on the original clutch with no slipping. I bought the Boxster at 78k miles and it has 85k now, I let a friend drive it once and he burned the clutch pretty bad on a hill start, but besides that I've been very careful on the clutch, I can't really see how it would crap out this early. I don't feel any slipping at all - it just jerks a bit going into 2nd, which might have nothing to do with clutch, and the pedal is a little heavy, but that might just be the clutch fluid, which I don't think has been changed recently.

I have the 1st one - is the latter worth the extra $$$? My gripe with 101 projects is that the directions are really rather scant and the pictures are too small.

Just wanna say real quick, thank you guys for all of the help, insight, advice, support, etc. I really love this forum. I used to be over on the Mazdaspeed forums and they were all kinda dicks to people asking for help, and I'm on the FT86 forums currently - super nice people, but I love the amount of experience and camaraderie here.

I believe most of the pictures in the book are available on-line.

Yeah, they are, but they aren't super clear. It's kinda hard to figure out the exact steps, it just says un-do this, do this, good if you have a lot of technical knowledge, but I'm still definitely a novice with repair work.

The simple answer is YES. For DIY you should the two suggested books, also purchase a bootleg Porsche Boxster service manual on eBay and finally download the Boxster parts listing from the Porsche web site.

The last time I was there was about 5 moths ago. I’ve heard nothing but good things about this place and during their Tech session it showed why. They know their stuff.

The brakes and clutch both require bleeding. Neither is hard if you use a Motive type pressure bleeder. The clutch slave bleed valve is a little tough to get to...you kind of do it by feel and a lift is a tremendous help.

Yep, as Anker said, both books make the whole IMO. Wayne D.'s books are great, I have the 911 version as well but they do lack some finer points and details that make things a little easier. The Porsche manual is great, and one of the best laid out automotive books I've seen. It's beefy too, about 2.5-3" thick. Look on Ebay and watch PCA as well, I bought mine "gently" used for 50 bones.

Regarding the mount and the shifter, the 997 shifter is the one you want, or the 997 GT3 shifter, either can be had at Suncoast Parts. Not sure if they are avail through Pelican. Both will reduce your shift throw and eliminate any slop in the system. Best bang for the buck IMO short of the high end race systems... $$$

The motor mount is impossible to diagnose by looking at it. Again, you want the newest version for the 997. You need to make sure you get the little "ear pieces" as well as they are not included. Pelican has both I think. The best way to "diagnose" a MM is by feel. If you feel vibration around 3k, you feel a distinct 'clunk' at times when shifting, or you simply have "loose" feeling shift engagement your MM is most likely shot. As I said, with the age and mileage on your car it is worth doing. Not expensive, slightly daunting, but doable DIY.

UPDATE:

So I picked up the car today - he said that the shocks were shot, tie rods in/out are shot, bump stops front are shop, and rear trailing arms are shot. He quoted me $3500 to do the 4 shocks/struts including labor/parts... seems a bit steep to me.

His suggested was that I sell the car.. he said it needed too much work and it wouldn't be worth it. He said that there is slight seeping from the RMS and in his opinion the clutch needs to be changed.

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I could do the tie rods - those seem simple enough - and then take it for an alignment and see if that does the trick. Otherwise, the guy kinda freaked me out. The car was running like a champ and it feels fine to me - just this infuriating vibration/shimmy through the steering when I drive.

So fix the shimmy to make the car fun to drive again and buy some time to reevaluate the rest as you go. Again, a lot of the stuff noted is DYI, even if you need to get a some help.

Is it the same shop that did the inspection?
Which shop is this?