987 Engine Failure Help
 

Hey Guys,

I have a 2005 987 S, 202,000 miles on it. Yesterday after some spirited driving I ran into engine trouble and I am at odds with what I've learned, versus what the shop is telling me. The car has never had an engine problem before, and it is driven spiritedly at least 1 a month for the last 9 years. It used to be my daily until a few years ago. Never tracked and on original clutch. Looking for any suggestions.

I was pushing it and everything was normal. The driving included me hitting redline a few times. After slowing down to cruise, at around 70mph I noticed a tacking/flapping sound. This sound pulsated every few seconds; volume was lower, then higher, in a rhythm. This tacking went faster and slower with engine rpm. So I slowed down a bit to listen, and, after a few miles, when trying to accelerate slightly, the car barely did. Felt like the backpressure u get when u run out of gas and try to accelerate. Then again, I was in 6th at around 55 mph... So I pulled over and got out to look under, and engine cut off a few seconds after I walked to the back. No check engine lights came on; oil levels and temperature were good. Did not try to restart.

I had it towed to a local indy I deal with whose prices recently increased to 140$ an hr. So naturally I want to pinpoint the problem as economically as possible. The 1 porsche mechanic there has done well but is very blatant with his diagnosis at times with little detail. I hardly get to talk directly to him but have not pushed issues. There are few economical dealers I have found in the Hampton Roads area.

So the shop calls me today and tells me they think its the IMS bearing that went out. I must note that I didn't see any metallic items last oil change, around 7000 mi ago. They quoted me 776.00 to diagnose. I am conflicted because based on what I've heard about the IMS going, its quite catastrophic, there is a big oil leak, and a much crazier clattering is heard when this happens and the engine immediately dies due to metals flying around.

I suspect this may be bent valves, a chain failure, lifter issue or the like but I'm no mechanic. I read forums. At the same time I don't know how to go about questioning someone with years of experience. I don't know if the oil filter was checked or compression test was done or anything. I will be quite upset if they tear down to the IMS and its not damaged.

I'd appreciate if anyone has any suggestions on how I should proceed. Thx.

Have the mechanic dump the oil and check the filter first.

Pull the oil filter and cut it open; if it is full of metal, the engine is done regardless of exactly why, and needs to come out and apart. When one of these engines fail, the oil could be free of metal seconds before the event. What you saw in the last oil change may also not be relevant. And we have seen IMS failures that led to piston and cylinder liner destruction without out a drop of oil leaking.

Ask the Indy if they will discount or include the inspection cost of $767 if they do the engine work.

See that's the thing. They have not dumped the oil and checked the filter yet. This is the first thing I would do. Checking the filter, compression, etc. I feel like these are things they should suggest they do first instead of just saying a transmission drop is needed. I'm not sure if I should have to ask them to do every little thing. Am I wrong to expect a response like "We checked that and that and that over there, so based on these results were going to have to do this next"?

The service writer claims the tech troubleshot the issue and the tech didn't see a need to do so since it would cost me more...


By the way I just paid this shop 2053$ to replace all 4 shocks/struts and 2 front lower control arms a week ago, and I supplied all the parts.

It seems like they want $767 to do all that. Ask them to just do the filter should be just a few dollars I would think. Have them cut the filter and then go see it....follow JFP advice. My 2 cents.

It's easy for us outsiders to tell you how to handle your mechanic because we have no skin in the game
You may want to mildly strongly push back on how they have come to that conclusion without inspecting the filter and oil.
In 5+ hours they didn't check the oil - Boxster, IMS, oil - interesting

Its very reasonable to ask what they did for 5 hours and how they came to that conclusion. I can't imagine that they wouldn't share this information. If they suspected a failed IMS they should have cut open the filter to confirm.

In 5 hours of labor, I would have thought that they would have drained the oil, cut open the filter and dropped the pan. And that would account for the first hour of labor. I suggest you push for more detail. If they can't/won't give that to you, ask to speak to management and ask for a reduction.

Well, 202,000 miles. That's awesome. Hope you get back on the road again soon.

Well I'm just a bit confused. Is the shop telling you that they've already diagnosed that the issue is the IMSB and they want you to pay $776 now for doing something, even though they didn't pull the filter or drop the sump from the car? Or are they making an (somewhat?) informed assessment that the issue is the IMSB and it will cost you $776 for them to actually do some work(pull and cut the filter, drain the oil and drop the sump) to confirm their initial assessment? I think they could start with the oil filter, and also while the car is on the lift see if they can turn over the engine by hand, then pull the sump.

You ought want to talk to this guy if the engine is truly toasted.

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/68278-used-engine-2005-s.html

They haven't charged me anything yet. The 776.00 figure is to (diagnose) the problem by pulling the transmission, which means I'll end up spending way more replacing the IMS, and clutch stuff if they do that; (I'd be stupid not to). And that might not even be the problem. They already came to the conclusion to do this after they claim they troubleshot the problem. This was after they told me they hadn't checked the filter and oil yet.

I'm initially hesitant to start questioning a porsche tech, but I wasn't given any details on how they came to this conclusion. I suspect they are going to charge to check the filter and drain the oil, and I suspect it will be over $100, when I can jack it up and check the filter myself in 5 mins.

The fact that they have not checked the oil filter, or asked me to do this is what concerns me. For me, that brings the integrity of the technician into question. To suspect IMS failure and not check that first?! It makes me want to do it myself and not let them do it, or take it somewhere else. Should I press the issue? Because I can respectfully do so. Still, that's not a position I like to be in; I shouldn't have to tell the experienced one what to do in order to save money. Its like they just want to sell me.

I wish had the thought to record the sound before I pulled over. I'm somewhat sure it was something timing related. I'm thinking I over-revved or something, I did get halfway into the red one shift. Even pushing over 200000 miles I'm not perfect. But I love my engine.

Instead of continuing to fret about it, get under the damned car and pull the filter; then, and only then will you know where you stand.

Yes Sir. Ill do it tomorrow.

Why don't you do some of this work yourself? Anybody can unscrew an oil filter, cut it open and look at the contents. If the result are inconclusive, send the used oil in for analysis. There are lot of us here who can help you.

You can't over-rev the engine if you drive it up to redline. You have a rev-limiter that will prevent you from going into the danger zone and bending valves. If you miss a down shift (5-2 instead of 5-4), you will over-rev your engine and cause problems. But my understanding of your description is you did the former not the latter, so no need to worry about over-revving.

Pull the filter, cut it open and see where you are. Or let them do it while you are present. Re beer, these folks work for you. Specialist or not, you are the customer and don't accept whet they tell you as gospel. It's not personal,it business and as the customer you have rights. Be specific and if you BS meter is going off and. They are telling you something you don't like, then move the car to another shop. You car sounds like it has a catastrophic failure and there should be NO guessing about the root cause.

These are good to great shops, then there is the other types.

1999 boxster. Brake pedal was sticking. Replaced vacuum booster but now brakes have no play at all. Just a slight touch and they lock?? But main problem now is that the brakes are sticking (not pedal) and preventing the car from moving at times?? Any suggestions.

At this point, we have zero proof that it's catastrophic, just speculation. Let's gather and present some meaningful data before we get too far off the deep end.

As a side note, I'd add:

1) I see zero benefit for shifting (street driving) at redline on the 987S motor. Very little to gain in those final 200-400 RPM.

2) A 7,000 mile oil change interval it a bit too long. 5,000 would be better.

Hope Darkstormvx is back in action soon.

+1 on all 3 points.

I shift at 6K rpm when tracking my CSS and change the oil btwn 4-5K mi.

Yes I'm going to try and stop by there today after work and have them pull it while I'm there or do it myself. I just don't feel right not seeing it myself and having them do it.

Also I don't make a habit of hitting redline during street driving and I almost never hit the limiter. I believe I downshifted to 6th to 3rd at around 80-90 mph. When I got in gear I was in the middle of the red field, i think. I am not 100% on this because i know what an over rev sounds like and everything was normal. I then shifted to 4th right after. I didn't notice anything till I was cruising later at lower speeds.

When I purchased the car in 2008 porsche recommended like 15k or 20k intervals for oil changes. Naturally, after research, I went with a little less than half that so that's why I'm doing 7k right now, but I can always change. More concerned about this issue right now though.

Ok, the shop hours are the same as my work schedule, making it difficult to be there when they pull the filter. So, I asked if they could take the filter out, cut it open and hold it for me till i can pick it up. Service writer claims, the tech advised I don't need to that since he's pretty sure its the IMS. I asked how the tech came to this conclusion and he said its based on the sound he is hearing.

They said they would do it if I really wanted to but they didn't want me to spend more money to have that done if I didn't need to.

Very interesting, as well a questionable. When an IMS gets to the point of death, the immediate result is the engine jumps time, pistons hit valves, and worse follows; but the engine stops running forever. I have never seen or heard of an IMS failure where the engine was able to make any sound once the IMS failed.

You need to be under the car when the filter is pulled, otherwise I have no idea what your chosen shop is up to, but in my estimation, it ain't good.

Listen to the experts here on this forum. I am by no means one of them but JFP is. I found particles in my filter when performing an oil change on my 986 and I brought the car in to a pcar specialist for analysis. They dropped the oil pan and told me my IMS was bad and I needed a replacement engine. Seriously. After consulting this forum and the generous contributors I took the car back and drove it home. I pulled the transmission and the clutch/flywheel and got to the IMS. Imagine my surprise when I pulled out a pristine condition dual row IMS bearing. I won't be going back to that pcar specialist again.

Exactly what I thought JFP. It still starts and makes that tacking sound. This shop mostly deals with old folks that are willing to pay to have parts thrown at problems. I really needed your guys opinion on what he was telling me because it didn't make sense.

I'm going to take the car back, get it towed home and check it myself. The only other options near me for the next step are the Porsche dealership in VA beach and a specialty Porsche indy in Richmond, Lufteknic. I can do amateur DIY stuff but this is beyond me.

First thought was to ask you guys when I was on the side of the road. I always appreciate the help on this forum. I've done so much work myself just reading posts and articles.

I think you need to find a new shop.

Everything you've posted points to a situation where you no longer feel the shop has your best interest at heart and can't be trusted.

Nothing wrong with picking up your car and going elsewhere.

Good luck.

Check with your local PCA chapter for recommended shops in your area.

Reading this thread reminded me of BIGjake's "IMS failure" that turned out to be alternator and serpentine belt. http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/56984-bigjakes-ims-dilemma.html
Not to get darkstormvx's hopes up too much, but there are a few problems that will stop the engine, but not cause catastrophic damage. At >200K miles I can think of a few parts that could be worn out.
+1 for looking for another shop. Sounds like you know your area, but ask here if you haven't already looked:
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/9615-find-your-local-mechanic-porsche-specialist-19.html#post546233
And like others have mentioned or implied, If there is significant (metallic) debris in the filter, any attempt to repair the engine will not be cost effective. Once the IMSB has failed, you do not replace the IMSB.

Well mine had a failed IMS and I was able to drive it off to the side of the road. And then was able to start it up again. The horrible clatter convinced me to turn is off and wait for a two truck. In truth the damage was done in that first nanosecond

CB

That's an expensive first diagnostic step. Check to oil filter for metal contamination and then pull the pan. I'd actually skip the oil filter and just pull the pan to see how much metal is in it. If its bad don't even bother putting the pan back on.

When my IMS went there was a ton of oil under the car.

Not to mince words, or belittle your loss, but I would say that if it still ran, yours was in the early stages of failure, but had not completely gone yet. Yes, your engine would have also been full of metal, but the valve train had to still be working. When the IMS totally fails, the crank and valve train go out of sync and this is what you find:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/uploa...1231775013.jpg http://lnengineering.com/wp/wp-conte...defailure2.jpg

And believe me, these would not run, and one would not even turn over on the starter.

That sound like yours was more of a center bolt failure, which ultimately took out the bearing.

Could very well be, but the difference was just a matter of moments between first hearing the clatter of valves meeting pistons and getting to the side of the road and restarting the car only to continue hearing the clatter. Whether the bolt failed and caused the bearing to fail or the bearing failed is an academic question with no practical difference. And my shop did say that the pan was full of metal pieces

Normally, if there is such a thing with IMS failures, if there is substantial oil loss from inside the bell housing area, it is because of center bolt failure:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...nnK-FdwyY0UlOK

When this happens, oil seal is lost and the lack of centering and axial control of the entire IMS shaft simply beats the IMS bearing to death, which results in piston to valve contact, etc.

But by far, the most common comment we hear when one fails is. "there was a noise and it stopped running". Usually, that is the last time it runs.

JFP -- far be it from me to teach you about the Boxster engine. That was just my experience. If the bearing fails, or the bolt fails, your engine is toast immediately. So for people like me, a distinction without a difference

I understand your point fully as the ultimate end result is the same and to you and the rationale would sound like semantics; but for those of us that spend out days trying to keep these things from happening, it matters. For example, center bolt failures are exactly why I recommend against another poster trying to reuse the factory bolt, and why the better made aftermarket kits use a much larger center bolt without the under cut for the O-ring, which is where most bolt failures start.

The IMS bearing failed in my car, and the IMS bolt broke. The previous owner drove it a block on a neighborhood street to get it home while it sounded like marbles in a tin can, then shut it off. No valve to piston damage. The IMS drive chain did dig into the block a bit giving the block a distinctive hickey. A couple of grand in parts (just parts) later and another 250 in head work (from a friend) as well as a bit (quite a bit) of time spent rebuilding the mess and it's right as rain.

Check your oil filter for ferrous metal (bring a magnet) and if you find it, unless you are curious or a bear for punishment, the motor can not be economically rebuilt unless you are capable of doing it yourself. Even then parts are blisteringly expensive.

If you find metal shavings in the oil filter your best bet is to sell your car as a roller, or source a replacement engine.

Welcome.
Yes. Start a new thread so folks can find and help you with your problem.