IMS Bearing -- Be careful when specifying a replacement

[Seadweller]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Only relevant compared to the 6 year 75k service life of the bearing that could have been installed

I'll say it again...Seriously?

6 years? That's absurd...Didn't realize that, and I have the LN IMSB installed, and most likely, not this "extended life" version, if that's what you want to call it...

[JFP in PA]

OK, this needs to be put in perspective as there appears to be problems both with the shop and the owner.

The shop did not do what I would call a complete customer information session; when we get such a request, the first thing we want to make sure is that the customer knows what retrofit kits are available, and the relative advantages of each. Second, when installed, we put the exact model bearing that was used and its unique serial number on the invoice. We also never let one out the door without the door jamb sticker with the serial number. So I would say that the shop did not do everything they should have.

At the same time, however, it does not appear clear that the owner specifically asked for the single row Pro bearing. If he did, and the shop did not have the Faultless Tool, they would have had to say no to the job, or refer him elsewhere.

Blaming the outcome on LN seems mildly ridiculous.

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Giller

I disagree. The shop did as they were told - they installed an LN bearing just like the customer asked.
In the vast majority of shops, clients go in and ask them to replace the brakes, or change the oil. No where does the shop ever check into what oil the client wants or what pads to use....most just use the oem recommended.
If you want something specific, you have to ask for it.

Disagree. I go to a shop to get advice. When I specified an LN bearing they, who have more experience and information, could easily have taken the time to lay out my options. They did this when I asked about a water pump with a metal impeller.

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Seadweller

I'll say it again...Seriously?

6 years? That's absurd...Didn't realize that, and I have the LN IMSB installed, and most likely, not this "extended life" version, if that's what you want to call it...

Tell me why you think this service life recomendation is absurd.

[Boxtaboy]

Technically, I don't think the shop is in the wrong because you didn't specify you wanted a specific type of LN Bearing. If the shop knows they don't have the upgraded tooling to install the Pro model, they won't come out and tell you that option cause you only specified a LN. Is it totally honest, no- but let's be realistic...not everyone is, and they have to make money. It's like asking a dealer to use Mobil 1 to change your oil. If you don't specify 0w-40, they can fill with Mobil 5w-50 if they got that in stock for cheap, and still would've followed your orders.

Do you have a right to be upset though?- yes, but you're part to blame too for finding out the difference after the fact. The shop's job is to complete jobs, not consult you for the best option necessarily. Would it be nice if they did?...yeah

[Frank N]

If my clutch is still good at 50k, I am definitely not having enough fun.

[Cbonilla]

I agree that the failure is ultimately at my feet. But for a civilian I still think that I did my homework and deserved a different outcome.

[mikefocke]

Every wear part has its limits. LN is specific in its recommendations on who should use their $800 part and who should consider their part that is more expensive. And a part that lasts 6 years is probably within the limits of clutch life too. So that is quite a reasonable target.

LN has produced multiple versions at multiple price points. Just like Porsche and their cars. The market dictates. Be grateful for their continued investment in your future.

And distributors have old parts in the pipeline. LN doesn't sell directly.

And shop owners have limits to their spending. Unless they are big and established and so know that they can amortize the cost of a tool upgrade over many many uses.

By all means, specify by SKU. By all means, ask what tools the shop has and instructions the shop will follow. Remember this ad: An informed shopper is our best customer.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Oldcarguy

Hi Carlos, I understand your frustration. Out of curiosity I just checked the LN website and current product PDF. While the LN product page and PDF no longer have a picture of the classic IMSB or show it in the products for sale as they did in January 2017, it is still listed on both their website and in the PDF - "Also available (not shown) Classic Single Row IMS and 06-08 IMS upgrade".

Good luck with your discussion with the shop that did the install, I hope they can at least assure you have a real LN bearing and that it can still be registered with LN.

Spot on. All our buying guides and brochures still list the part since it's still available. We push updates to our site and from time to time, a part gets deactivated if there is no stock. Probably what happened with the classic Single Row. People then try to buy it when we don't actually have it.

We do not stock the classic Single Row IMS Retrofit on our shelves at LN. They are special order for the wholesale accounts only (SSF, IMC) who sell them to shops. They have to order them in large quantities and wait 10-12 weeks for them. As such, the retail price point and cost to the shops for the classic single row is actually much higher than the Single Row Pro for the reason the wholesalers have greater carrying costs and we make them in lower volumes.

In all fairness to LN, we ran many promotions over the years to shops to help subsidize tooling cost and even then, the profit they make on one job will cover the cost of the tool and then some in its first use. You can only lead a horse to water.

All we can do is try our best to educate everyone, but even then, we still have shops not qualifying jobs and putting bearings into engines that need to be torn down. Then it's our fault when they need a new engine.

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

I agree that the failure is ultimately at my feet. But for a civilian I still think that I did my homework and deserved a different outcome.

I agree, you do deserve a better outcome, especially since it appears the shop didn't even provide the door jamb sticker that they should have to evidence the installation. You picked the wrong installation shop unfortunately, it seems. Did they respond favorably to your complaint?

[CBRacerX]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Spot on. All our buying guides and brochures still list the part since it's still available. We push updates to our site and from time to time, a part gets deactivated if there is no stock. Probably what happened with the classic Single Row. People then try to buy it when we don't actually have it.

We do not stock the classic Single Row IMS Retrofit on our shelves at LN. They are special order for the wholesale accounts only (SSF, IMC) who sell them to shops. They have to order them in large quantities and wait 10-12 weeks for them. As such, the retail price point and cost to the shops for the classic single row is actually much higher than the Single Row Pro for the reason the wholesalers have greater carrying costs and we make them in lower volumes.

In all fairness to LN, we ran many promotions over the years to shops to help subsidize tooling cost and even then, the profit they make on one job will cover the cost of the tool and then some in its first use. You can only lead a horse to water.

All we can do is try our best to educate everyone, but even then, we still have shops not qualifying jobs and putting bearings into engines that need to be torn down. Then it's our fault when they need a new engine.

Thanks Charles - previous customer here - I have a 2001 986S that is going on the lift later this week and will need an IMS update. I'll be calling to discuss the options once I have the existing bearing type identified. As part of my due diligence, I read thru the information on your site and the companion site IMS 101 – IMS Retrofit -
I found just about everything I needed therein.

The one thing I would like to find, and I'm going to have to start looking, is somewhere to rent the faultless install tool

Keep up the good work!

[JayG]

Originally Posted by Boxtaboy

Technically, I don't think the shop is in the wrong because you didn't specify you wanted a specific type of LN Bearing. If the shop knows they don't have the upgraded tooling to install the Pro model, they won't come out and tell you that option cause you only specified a LN. Is it totally honest, no- but let's be realistic...not everyone is, and they have to make money. It's like asking a dealer to use Mobil 1 to change your oil. If you don't specify 0w-40, they can fill with Mobil 5w-50 if they got that in stock for cheap, and still would've followed your orders.

Do you have a right to be upset though?- yes, but you're part to blame too for finding out the difference after the fact. The shop's job is to complete jobs, not consult you for the best option necessarily. Would it be nice if they did?...yeah

Bullshyt

A good shop absolutely should be recommending and discussing with you the options and what they feel is the best option for your needs

They should tell you exactly what they will be doing and what parts they will be using. Using your example of an oil change, they must ask and let you know the options and what oil they will be putting in

The ultimate decision is yours, not the shop

Case in point
I just had a torn CV boot and my mechanic gave me 3 options
1- replace the boot and rebuild the CV
2 - replace the axle with an aftermarket one
3 - replace the axle with a factory one

He gave me the costs ans well as the pros and cons of each choice and I decided on how I would spend my $$

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by JayG

Bullshyt

A good shop absolutely should be recommending and discussing with you the options and what they feel is the best option for your needs

They should tell you exactly what they will be doing and what parts they will be using. Using your example of an oil change, they must ask and let you know the options and what oil they will be putting in

The ultimate decision is yours, not the shop

Case in point
I just had a torn CV boot and my mechanic gave me 3 options
1- replace the boot and rebuild the CV
2 - replace the axle with an aftermarket one
3 - replace the axle with a factory one

He gave me the costs ans well as the pros and cons of each choice and I decided on how I would spend my $$

No, your whole assumption is that he went to a good shop. If so, then yeah, those things apply. The shop still did install a LN bearing as instructed. It just didn't act as a good shop in good faith to ask him if he wanted the pro bearing installed.

[B6T]

Why do the ceramic bearings only have either a 50k or 75k service life?

[PaulE]

Originally Posted by B6T

Why do the ceramic bearings only have either a 50k or 75k service life?

I think LN had to draw the line somewhere-they and Flat 6 Innovations came up with an aftermarket repair for and OEM design prone to failure. Not all OEM IMSBs fail, many go well over 100,000 miles without issue. But even though the LN units are ceramic and open, they still rely on splash lubrication and nothing lasts forever.

This thread got me thinking about my own IMSB replacement. I went back to my files and saw that I discussed this with my indie back in 2014. The single row pro was about $400 more and I went with it.

CBonilla, while it sucks to find out that you got a single row replacement, I think it is still way better than OEM. Thanks for bringing this up for those who may be contemplating an IMSB replacement.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Disagree. I go to a shop to get advice. When I specified an LN bearing they, who have more experience and information, could easily have taken the time to lay out my options. They did this when I asked about a water pump with a metal impeller.

Yes, when you ASKED them about a water pump, they discussed it with you. In this case though, it sounds like you went to the shop and said hey, install an LN bearing. So they did. Not much to discuss - maybe they didn't even know there were multiple options themselves? You didn't know, maybe they didn't either.

[Cbonilla]

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

[Boxtaboy]

Thanks for posting their response. So basically, they acknowledge that the Pro bearing is more durable, but they don't feel comfy installing it. Other shops seemingly can install it though. Interested to hear if they say it was hard for them to install the sticker too.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Cbonilla

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

I find that response difficult to process. We also have both tools, and quite plainly have never had any issues using it on any of the LN bearing styles. The Faultless Tool is just that; it is so much better than using a dead blow hammer to try and drive in a refrigerated bearing, and never ends up cocking the single row bearings. It is also the only tool that can install the Pro bearing without potentially damaging the unit. As for knowing if the lock ring on the Pro bearing is seated, that also has never been an issue as you can hear the ring click into place, and we also mark the inner shaft for the expected install depth before starting the install, so there is also a visual confirmation as well.

As mentioned earlier, given a choice, all the techs in the shop will reach for the Faultless tool over the original IMS tool kit, because it is easier, quicker, and simply does a better job every time.

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Frank N

If my clutch is still good at 50k, I am definitely not having enough fun.

This car is a tip