Cayman announced

[lexuspilot]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

With a few needed options, this car will approach 60k delivered.

Who else is missing the value propostion here. A 245HP coupe for 60 large?????????????

Boy, the Germans are an arrogant lot!

Since when has Porsche ever positioned itself as the VALUE carmaker?

Porsche has been successful by "not" deciding for the customer what he/she will pay.... for anything.

[EPIQTodd]

Here's my take:

1) Porsche has a taste for profit now, and they know that by offering a car that is cheaper to make than the already very profitable Boxster (cheaper because there is no convertible top, but all other parts are the same) but costs more, they will make more profit. Simple economics.
2) One would say 'whoa! Not so fast on the simple economics - why would people pay more for the hardtop version of the same car, Todd?' Porsche likely realizes that nobody is cross-shopping the two. Even with the 911, nobody goes in thinking they want a convertible and then switching to coupe - or at least VERY few. On this vehicle, you either want a tight, small coupe, or a ragtop. One costs X, the other X+$5k.
3) Porsche will be adding the same engines in the Boxster in 2007, which means the difference at that point is simply the top and the intake grill, pretty much. They will raise the price of the Boxster because then they can make more profit, and nobody has to speculate why there is such a price discrepency, because there won't be!

[Brucelee]

"Porsche has been successful by "not" deciding for the customer what he/she will pay.... for anything."

Hmmm, Porsche has been successful for about 9 yrs now, starting in 1997. By coincidence, that is when they brought out a "bargain" Porsche, ie the Boxster. When the Box came out, the value proposition was clear and folks bought them in droves. As the prices increased, sales started to tail off.

I speculate about problems for Porsche in the future.

I see the Cayeene sales decline. I see the Panamera as a limited flop. I see the Cayman and its offshoots creating product distinction issues.

In general, I see a general delcine in profitability for Porsche.

why?

The name is Piech. The sin is arrogance. The confounding variable is VW.

We'll see!

IMHO!

[lexuspilot]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

"Porsche has been successful by "not" deciding for the customer what he/she will pay.... for anything."

Hmmm, Porsche has been successful for about 9 yrs now, starting in 1997. By coincidence, that is when they brought out a "bargain" Porsche, ie the Boxster. When the Box came out, the value proposition was clear and folks bought them in droves. As the prices increased, sales started to tail off.

I speculate about problems for Porsche in the future.

I see the Cayeene sales decline. I see the Panamera as a limited flop. I see the Cayman and its offshoots creating product distinction issues.

In general, I see a general delcine in profitability for Porsche.

why?

The name is Piech. The sin is arrogance. The confounding variable is VW.

We'll see!

IMHO!

Yes, I remember Boxster's were so cheap! The offering of a more affordable Lamborghini does not make Lamborghini a value carmaker.
The "used" card market is where the Boxster was a value. From just reading thise site it is obvious that owners of new and owners of pre-owned Boxsters have completely different motives when choosing a Boxster. There are many 97-99 Boxster owners on here who would not be interested in a new base Boxster or even a new base Cayman. But the performance, pedigree and bling of a pre-owned Boxster make for a great deal of pre-owned value.


IMEHO

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

"Porsche has been successful by "not" deciding for the customer what he/she will pay.... for anything."

Hmmm, Porsche has been successful for about 9 yrs now, starting in 1997. By coincidence, that is when they brought out a "bargain" Porsche, ie the Boxster. When the Box came out, the value proposition was clear and folks bought them in droves. As the prices increased, sales started to tail off.

I speculate about problems for Porsche in the future.

I see the Cayeene sales decline. I see the Panamera as a limited flop. I see the Cayman and its offshoots creating product distinction issues.

In general, I see a general delcine in profitability for Porsche.

why?

The name is Piech. The sin is arrogance. The confounding variable is VW.

We'll see!

IMHO!

Hi,

Good thoughts, but it is the cayenne which turned the corner for Porsche. Total Boxster production to date is less than 150,000 units, maybe another 20,000 with the '07 models. That equates to 17,000 units/year over 10 years and that cannot spell big profits.

The fact that Porsche can produce the 996/986, 997/987 and the Cayenne and Toureg from the same Parts Bins that has yielded so much saving. R&D costs can be ammortized over a broader Product Range resulting in lower per unit costs, not to mention that Valmet can produce these things much cheaper than Porsche themselves once Brick and Mortor costs are factored in. This is where most of their profitability has come in the past few years.

So far as Porsche's decline, I agree. There are two schools of thought in such times, try to prolong the life of the Golden Goose by not becoming too greedy, or grab all that you can on the premise that the Goose is going to die anyway someday, so get all you can while you can. Looks like Porsche has chosen the latter...

[Perfectlap]

No way, the Boxster DEFINITELY turned the corner for Porsche.

Agreed that the Cayenne is a much bigger success story for Porsche. But had it not been for the Boxster Porsche wouldn't have had the luxury of dragging their feet to unveil the top notch rebranded Touraeg. Those Boxster dollars brought in allot more money for R&D across all their models. Who knows maybe it was Porsche's know how that made the VW SUV as good as it is. I highly doubt VW would have been able to produce an SUV on their own that lapped the N-Ring in the same time as the BoxsterS. A collaboration that was as lucrative as it was successful on track. Who knows if Porsche would have even been in a position to get a good deal out of that colloboration if they were still only selling minimal numbers of 911 and 968's.

Look up the Porsche sales in North America in the early 90's.
I recall an interview with the CEO of PNA stating that they sold less
than 1,000 911's in one particular year.
They sold that many Caymans in January alone.

The Boxster is no Miata in terms of sales but it was certainly a make or break momment for a company that would probably have been taken over instead of
buying a piece of VW.

[Brucelee]

The Cayeene has been a success for Porsche, no doubt.

However, they were already the highest ROI company when the Cayeene debuted, thanks to the Boxster and then, the re-vitalized 911.

To be fair, these guys have made many good decisions over the last 9 yrs. They have also made some lousy ones in the previous 10 yrs.

So, lets not make them out to be omnipotent, they are not.

I do think the Cayman will ultimately bring very very few new purchasers to Porsche.

Ditto the coming 4 seater.

I could be wrong, they haven't asked me for my opinion anyway.

PS-their quality could be WAY better, as well as their attitude.

[lexuspilot]

I never thought of the Boxster as a "bargain" porsche. That was the 914.


I was not arguing the Boxster being a turning point. It was obvious by the hype that it would be a big thing for Porsche. I think they call that hitting the nail on the head. The Cayman has not had the same emotional impact on the general public. As said above though, the Cayman seems to be targeted at those wanting a hard top go-kart roadster. Mazda had a MX5 coupe at an autoshow..for similar reasons.


There was a Solstice with a hard top and 500hp for Rhys Millen to drive in Autoweek last week. All the racers want hardtops.

[jangobox]

[QUOTE=Brucelee]

I do think the Cayman will ultimately bring very very few new purchasers to Porsche.

Ditto the coming 4 seater.

I could be wrong, they haven't asked me for my opinion anyway.

{QUOTE]

I actually cannot wait for a 4-seater sedan by Porsche. I love the Maserati QuatroP car. I hope they make something similar in those lines, but of course with better performance! :dance:

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

No way, the Boxster DEFINITELY turned the corner for Porsche.

Agreed that the Cayenne is a much bigger success story for Porsche. But had it not been for the Boxster Porsche wouldn't have had the luxury of dragging their feet to unveil the top notch rebranded Touraeg. Those Boxster dollars brought in allot more money for R&D across all their models. Who knows maybe it was Porsche's know how that made the VW SUV as good as it is. I highly doubt VW would have been able to produce an SUV on their own that lapped the N-Ring in the same time as the BoxsterS. A collaboration that was as lucrative as it was successful on track. Who knows if Porsche would have even been in a position to get a good deal out of that colloboration if they were still only selling minimal numbers of 911 and 968's.

Look up the Porsche sales in North America in the early 90's.
I recall an interview with the CEO of PNA stating that they sold less
than 1,000 911's in one particular year.
They sold that many Caymans in January alone.

The Boxster is no Miata in terms of sales but it was certainly a make or break momment for a company that would probably have been taken over instead of
buying a piece of VW.

Hi,

Sorry, but you just don't have your facts straight. Boxster Sales peaked in '00/'01 with 27,865 Units produced. By '04/'05 production dropped to 12,988 units or a 55% reduction from the peak year. These are the last figures released by Porsche.

Also, when you look at just the North American Market (Porsche's Largest Market by far), Porsche sold a total of 31,356 units, but the Cayenne accounted for 17,216 of these (or 55% of all Sales) while the Boxster and 911 Sales combined accounted for only 14,140 Units. So, if one were to look strictly at the data, it appears that Porsche has now become primarily an SUV Manufacturer which also produces some Sports Cars. Combined Boxster and 911 Sales were down some 17%, the 3rd year of such declines.

One other significant factor, maybe the most significant, relates to North American Sales as well, namely the currency exchange rates of the Dollar against the Euro. Porsche profited from this to the tune of 14% of their total profit, not because of anything they did, but solely due to the World Currency Markets.

Fact is, the Boxster improved Cash Flows for Porsche, but had minimal effect on profits. If the Cayenne takes a nose-dive, Porsche will go right along with it...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

"If the Cayenne takes a nose-dive, Porsche will go right along with it..."

I would put even money on this happening.

[Perfectlap]

I agree Porsche is getting ahead of itself.

BUT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!

Porsche don't make allot of cars compared to BMW, MERC and Jag.

Those who can afford to say bye bye to half their car's worth after only 4 years are growing in numbers. The wealthy today are getting wealthier and their ravenous desire of luxury goods is approaching that level we saw in the 80's.
Women buying $10,000 handbags makes dropping $70K on "a Porcshe" look like
chump change to them.

Porsche is cashing in while the the getting is good. As interest rates climb Porsche like Merc and BMW will sell fewer and fewer cars. They are aware of this and they aren't the least bit concerned about us regular folk who ******************** about the Cayman being more expensive the Boxster. They are looking to milk max profits on all their cars while demmand is still strong for a car brand that simply has attained a level of exclusivity that won't soon be undone unless these newer Porsches start forcing their well heeled owners to more frequent trips to the dealer than they can tolerate away from the exclusive mall and golf course. Unreliable cars is the kiss of death. Expensive? pffftt...

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Porsche is cashing in while the the getting is good. As interest rates climb Porsche like Merc and BMW will sell fewer and fewer cars. They are aware of this and they aren't the least bit concerned about us regular folk who ******************** about the Cayman being more expensive the Boxster. They are looking to milk max profits on all their cars while demmand is still strong for a car brand that simply has attained a level of exclusivity that won't soon be undone unless these newer Porsches start forcing their well heeled owners to more frequent trips to the dealer than they can tolerate away from the exclusive mall and golf course. Unreliable cars is the kiss of death. Expensive? pffftt...

Unreliable cars are the kiss of death in the exclusive luxury market? Then how do you explain Ferrari?

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by eslai

Unreliable cars are the kiss of death in the exclusive luxury market? Then how do you explain Ferrari?

Ferrari today make perhaps the most reliable cars they have ever made. Luca Di Montemozolo has really turned around that aspect of Ferrari. When he first took over he noticed that the quality control wing (where they fix mistakes) of the factory was almost as large as the assembly area!
Maintenance for those cars is still outrageous but the Ferraris since about 2000 have been very much unlike the cars they've made the previous 20 years.

Also, Ferrari are rarely daily drivers from what I understand. Reliability is not such an issue with that particular car maker. I wonder what the average odometer reading is on Ferrari after 4 years. I'll have to check it out on Ebay

[eslai]

I still hear reports all the time about problems with 360 Modena and newer Ferraris, but yes, if you don't actually drive the car much you won't have many problems.

Anyhow, my point is that I don't see rich folk being scared away by reliability. They'll buy what they think looks good and has status.

[Perfectlap]

well the car is still Italian afterall!

Just from my experience the wealthiest guy I know has a 996 Turbo as his daily driver. The guy has 18 other cars and bikes. When asked why picked the 996 TT
he said someting like "sturdy"