2nd gear, hard to shift after tranny oil change
 

Got transmission oil changed on my recently purchased '02 Boxster. After the oil change, the second gear shift is really hard in the mornings or if the car has been sitting for a long time. Once the car gets going, it is fine. I just avoid switching to 2nd for a few miles, go from 1 to 3.

My mechanic drove it (of course, after it had warmed up) and found no trouble shifting up and down. He suspects a bad/worn synchro but didn't really recommend fixing anything yet.

I thought about oil viscosity etc but if the oil wasn't right, it should affect all gears, right?

I changed the oil in my transmission and used what I thought was an improved oil, but it was not. I noticed immediately that that shifts were notchy when it was cold. I'll bet Porsche gear oil was not used. I got used to it, but I never liked it.

Depends on how your gears wear I'd think.

Research what weight he used vs recommended. Sounds like when I put gear oil in my Ranger that uses ATF. Not good.

Thanks, will check on the type of oil used. Is Swepco 201 a reasonable oil for this vehicle?

When I had my transmission rebuilt by Gbox that is what Erik recommended that I use, it worked fine.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...TrannyFill.jpg

Hey there Guys,

Erik Johnson here, I don't work with GBox any longer but instead opened up The Race Line. A friend was nice enough to pass this on to me. Swepco is a fantastic oil it gives great protection internally, and will give enough friction to the synchronizers so that they do not prematurely wear.

Let me know if I can be of help to anyone here, questions are always welcome, and I am happy to help.

One last thing though, I would recommend staying away from synthetic oils as they tend to make the synchros work harder in these gearboxes. FYI.

Erik Johnson
(970) 344-7761 phone

You do not mention how many miles on the 'box.
Interesting that you did not mention the 2nd gear detent fix.
Did you check for deteriorated seals on the vital bearings? You know the yucky finger test through the drain plug hole. It is a bit late if you have changed the oil.
These 6 speeds are a mystery time bomb in some cases. They have the IMSB issue ('sealed' bearing un-seals and dies) and the 2nd gear pop out problem, and CV joint boots go faster than the 5 speed. My issue is that there are no really detailed diy instructions. There is one good write up from itguys but their pdf has been pulled down.
In the near future I intend to do a very detailed and probably humiliating attempt at a diy fix of the 6 speed - 2nd gear +bearings. There is very little 'prior art' to help.
The reason this is difficult/important is:
1.the parts are $2000 -if you can find them/identify them or even know what you are looking at!
2.the tools - a big puller is $300+
3.the shaft is hollow so if you use too much force you buckle it = junk box.
I have a morbid fear that my well publicized humiliation here will simply drive a lot of business to Erik and the other few gearbox gurus.But someone has to do it. So many of these gearboxes are aging out and will be junked if not repaired correctly. I'll start in about 1 month - after I get the rebuilt M96 installed and running!
Watch this space?

I had the same experience. Switched over to the OEM oil and the cold shifts are much better. There are many threads addressing this issue.

This sounds more like a warn syncho to me, as you are not experiencing any issues in other gears, but I do not recommend waiting, as your repair bill will only start to climb the longer you wait.

If you used a synthetic oil on your last change, get that out quickly. This may at least buy you some time on your rebuild. Once the synchronizer starts to die it will do exactly what you are describing, work well once it is hot but not so well cold. This is due to the fact that the metals swell with heat and the tolerances tighten up again to allow that synchro to get a good bite on the dog ring collar again. It will get worse though.

With enough driving the operating sleeve will start to run into the dog ring on the gear and basically shred it. It again will start with a hard shift and progress to zipping the tips of the teeth off. Then it gets expensive.

Rebuilding these gearboxes is NOT a walk in the park guys. If you have the G86.20 6 speed, you will need a very large press to do this work correctly. (80-100 tons) If you try to pull the gears off with a puller you will either break the puller, or the gear. The G86.20 has interference gears, which means they do not sit on a spline like other gearboxes do.

Some of the other gearboxes, like the 987.20 and earlier 5 speed gearboxes are not nearly as hard to rebuild, but require some good tools, patience and knowledge to do. I can not tell you how many time we get gearboxes that are partially torn down, these are to put it mildly nightmares to work on. Parts can easily get put in backwards, or swapped for a similar part that is incorrect. The work involved labor wise goes up quite a bit, and thus so does the cost.

I am not saying that if you are a competent mechanic that you should not do this work, because it can be a fun experience and give a great deal of personal pride to do the work yourself. I am just saying that a gearbox rebuild may not be the best use of your time, as if it is done wrong, it can be quite expensive in the long run.

Best Regards all, and let me know if you have questions or needs I can help with.

Erik Johnson
The Race Line
(970) 344-7761 phone

Had the same problem. Used an transmission oil that was 75W-90 with API 5. Exact the same problem with 2nd gear directly after the oil change.

Now i will change back to the OEM oil, which is really hard to get over here in germany, because it is only sold in 200 litres barrels. The OEM oil is Shell Spirax S5 75W-90 ATE with an API GL4, GL5 and M1 specification. Have the oil, but the car is only registered from april to october. So i have to wait until april to get results.

Specification: http://www.smithandallan.com/documents/Spirax_S5_ATE_75W-90_%28en-GB%29_TDS.pdf

GREAT to see that you have ventured out on your own Erik! As I'm sure you've already surmised it is a double edged sword lol, long term very much worth it.

For those out there here is an Unsolicited Recommendation to deal with Erik. I can say from experience he is Very much a straight shooter and follows through completely with what he says will happen.

Probably worth investigating becoming a sponsor here, Pelican and Rennlist, Good luck Erik!!!!!! :cheers:

The car has 112k miles on it. Just talked to the mechanic, he said he used Motul 300 Gearbox 75w 90. I told him that I have been told to stay away from synthetic oil and he was curious as to why. So why? :)

The Porsche OEM oil that Porsche used for the G 86.20 is a full syntethic oil. See above.

The difference is, that it is not a normal MT oil. It's a transaxle oil, because the differential also runs in that oil.

Markus,
Excellent data.Thank you .
I wonder what the magic modifier is in the specified Shell Spirax you reference ? Friction modifiers?

This may help or confuse us?
Shell Spirax S5 ATE 75W-90 ? | ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S | Bob Is The Oil Guy
At least we could do a group buy of only 5 gallons and send the surplus to Markus for his helpfulness :-).
more here:
http://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/682030-gear-oil-recommendation-for-08-carrera-s-manual-tranny-2.html
before we get confused - confirm the gearbox is a 6+SPEED (not 5) and has LSD. Otherwise we'll be muddling.All my comments are 6+speed only !
Just a data point -for my 6speed ,Pelican list :
999-917-546-00-M862 Fuchs Titan Sintopoid 75W-90 $14.50 per liter
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/1048/POR_1048_TRANSM_pg1.htm#item0

Wrong oil. Been there done that. Really easy, just change Porsche brand oil before you do anything drastic.

5-speed Manual transmission - '02 Base Boxster, 2.7L.

Factory OEM oil. That's all I have to say.

It is just Shell/Motul/Castrol/whoever with a Porsche label and the 100%+ Porsche Dealer tax.
If you read some of the links, it is actually much cheaper to buy the specified oil even from Aston Martin dealers!
I just don't like being ripped off because I am clueless about what I am buying.

My car had a hard time shifting into 2nd gear. Put in Porsche gear oil. Problem solved. The added cost is a drop in the bucket for how often it has to be changed.

The only Porsche part in the oil used was the label on the jug.

That is true i'm sure. Never the less my car shifts much smoother now :cheers:

The German liqui-Moly mentioned in one of the links is available here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0055HS24O/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2/181-1076624-8818662?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=1XGGXVQMDEHFFMEYR1G6&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p =1944687702&pf_rd_i=B004GWUPOE
if you are stumbling through recommendations for 6+speed lubricants the gearbox part number is Getrag G86/20
The lube spec is: 2.7Lof oil to API classification GL5 75/90
And it has no factory LSD
PORSCHE 986 BOXSTER TRANSAXLE SPECIFICATIONS – California Motorsports Inc
http://pedrosboard.com/read.php?7,27236,27236
After all the reading,my conclusion is the Shell Spirax/Porsche original fill is the beat choice. It is what JFP recommends.
So the remaining question is where to get the ShellSpirax/Porsche oil for the best price. Well the shipping is a huge part of the deal .So I'll try to find a local dealer.

Hi Gelbster,

Shell Spirax S5 75W-90 is in general available in 20 litre and 209 litre barrels. I haven't found anybody that sells 1 Litre bottles over here in germany, or europe.

So we did a group buy in the german Porsche forum. If you're interested in importing 3 litres from germany i can give you a contact adress from a german forum member.

I think the most inexpensive way will be a group buy in the US. I saw that 20 litre cans are offered in the US.

Difference in formula: Well i don't know what additives they use. Also it is very interesting that the oil fulfils API GL4, GL5 and M1, because these API standards are different concerning the percentage of additives. And yes, you're right the oil has a homolgaton for Getrag transaxle transmission. So it should also work for the 5 speed.

Found this transmission oil chart from Porsche for the 2.7 and 3.2 engine. They also recommend Mobil MOBILUBE PTX 75W-90 and a Burnah oil for the 5 speed.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1424864312.jpg

Have not cheched if there are different versions of the Mobil are available like Shell Spirax. But the Mobil seems to be available in 1 litre bottles.

All other oils don't have a Porsche approval for these transmissions. If you try one, make shure it's a transaxle oil.

I recommend the Shell Spirax S5, because this is the Porsche OEM oil they fill in your transmission when they do a mt tranny oil change.

Regards from germany
Markus

Great info Markus, thank you.
I had found mention of the Mobil Ptx 75-90 and searched to find 3 liters required for a fill. No luck.

* Can anyone find Mobilube PTX 75w -90 in reasonable qty/price?
Or the Shell Spirax S5 ATE 75w-90 .
I tried hard but failed. It would be very helpful info to share with other Forum members.
Thanks for helping us Markus.
Not wanting to confuse but Shell seem to suggest that their newest product -Spirax S6 AXME may be suitable. It is rated for many cars,trucks and heavy equipment so may be more widely available.
The specs say it is GL5(but not GL4) & MT 1. Our spec is shared only with Ferrari !
http://s06.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell/static/usa/downloads/lubricants/cs5867-10-pri-spiraxindirectproductfambroc.pdf

Hi Gelbster,

please compare the oil specifications:

Shell Spirax S5 ATE 75W-90
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_GTDS_Shell_Spirax_S5_ATE_75W-90_%28en%29_TDS.pdf

Shell Spirax S6 AXME 75W-90
http://www.epc.shell.com/docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_Shell_Spirax_S6_AX ME_75W-90_%28en-GB%29_TDS.pdf

Please compare the kinematic viscosity of the two oils. It's very different. That's why S6 AXME won't work for the Porsche 986 Getrag transmission.

I'll recommend Shell Spirax S5 75W-90.

Best would be a group buy, but you'll need 6-7 people who are interested.

Regards from germany
Markus

Markus, you are correct !
The 40 degree kinematic is way,way different ! 115 vs 81. Too much?
The 100 degree kinematic viscosity is O.K.?
Excellent data resource you found.

Hi Gelbster,

whoa. Dynamic viscosity is really hard to explain for me, because english is not my mother tongue and this is a complex physics topic.

The wrong viscosity can harm much more than using the wrong oil. Cinematic viscosity decribes the viscosity to density ratio. It is measured in mm²/s. You use a Viskosimeter (don't know the english term) to measure it.

Please check Viscosity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a detailled desription. Think that can explain it better than i can do.

And yes, the difference between 81 vs. 115 is a lot. I think that can cause not only a bad shifting but also damage to the transmission.

Also dynamic viscosity is very different. 35.000 vs. 135.000. That means S6 AXME is 4 times viscous / thicker than S5 ATE. And that will harm the transmission definitively.

So Shell Spirax S5 ATE 75W-90 or Mobil MOBILUBE PTX 75W-90 are the right oils. ;)

Regards from germany
Markus

Parked the car in the garage for now and scheduled to have the Motul oil replaced with OEM oil coming Wednesday. Will update about any difference, I notice.

Shop used the recommended Burmah oil. Unfortunately, I don't think it has made any difference. On cold mornings, 2nd gear still won't engage :( I guess my mechanic was right all along, 2nd gear synchro going bad.

Might look for a used tranny in an year or two!

I had the same problem. Read somewhere a guy explaining how he nudged the shifter downward into what you can feel is a small gap just before going through the process of shifting into second Works for me

Try getting the cables adjusted. If you can remove the consol yourself then you save a few hours labor.

Thanks, will have cables checked but also had a short shifter installed so I guess they straightened out the cables when installing the shifter?

Mine shifts better from cold (read below zero) if after starting and while putting on my seat belt, I let the car idle in neutral with clutch out.

Oil
 

You are supposed to fill the transmission with the case at full operating temp. If you fill it cold you are over filling it. Is it possible you have over filled the case??

I am gonna have to call BS on this theory.

The reason that a transmission would be easier to shift after it warms up is that the viscosity of the oil improves, gets runnier with heat. This lets the synchros hunt as they should, instead of spin around, stuck to the assembly

The metal parts do not shrink or expand in such a way that they bind and cause things to be harder to shift. Porsche tolerances are tight, but not THAT tight!;)

Yes, having badly worn synchronizer rings is not going to help either.

Erik is correct in terms of the long term prognosis and it is the accepted conventional wisdom of the Forum. But perhaps they are all babbling fools?
Erik's polymer chemistry may be a bit shaky but he is helpful gearbox mechanic not a chemist !.
What he mean't(I think) to say is perhaps the friction modifiers in the unique additive pack for this "Porsche- spec " Spirax may have a critical function.That additive pack is unique to this spec of Spirax.
The ultimate authority (certainly not me!) on this issue is probably GBox or Forum Members GTgears and JFP. They have previously contributed to discussions on this subject very clearly and in detail.
I mention this so people reading this subject for the first time Search on the 6 speed lubrication subject before they damage their gearbox by using the wrong oil and thinking they dodged the Porsche tax.They might. But they'll get fined for tax evasion!
That said, neglecting the routine gearbox lube change could eventually cause more damage than using a generic oil ?
Without a CMS Shift Arrestor some say any 6 Speed is doomed so perhaps the whole discussion is moot ?