Do you ever feel vulnerable with the top down?

[JackG]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

What I am saying is that a Gun is really no practical deterrent. It's only value is to be used. If you simply pull it, this will more likely have an escalating effect than a deterrent one. This is especially true if you frequent that scene, next time the other guy will be forewarned.

The consensus among those advocating carrying a Handgun seems to be that only in an absolutely iron-clad, last-resort danger should it be used. But, what does that mean?

A Bad Guy may wield a Gun simply to scare you with no intention of using it. It may even be inoperable or unloaded. Often we hear of Police Officers shooting people who only possess fake guns, or hold-ups with replicas (just as an example). So, the only way you can be certain that the situation is truly life threatening is to have the Bad Guy actually fire a shot at you, anything else and you're making an assumption to one degree or another, maybe reasonable, maybe not. If the first shot misses or isn't fatal, you can now proceed with your planned response. If he didn't miss, your Gun has really done you no good.

C'mon, Jim. You're really grasping at straws here. You're bending over backwards to describe the situation in the most biased way against the law-abiding individual who's just trying to escape with his life. What do you have against the good guy?

Bottom line in your scenario above... the same rule applies to the bad guy as the good guy. If you pull it, it's to use it, not to just scare someone. Therefore, in your scenario, you don't wait until the person fires at you, just to make sure they aren't just "foolin' ya". If they are brandishing a weapon, they have made the choice for you... it's you or them.

Here's a question for you: Bad guy crack-addict car-jacker points a gun, says "get out or die", and then good guy gets a shot off, and kills bad guy. It is then discovered that bad guy's gun was not loaded. Should good guy stand trial for murder? You're on the jury... do you acquit the good guy, or send him to jail?

Extra credit: Do you award bad guy's crackhead wife damages in a civil suit?

Jack

[aBsOlUt]

Coming from a EU country (Greece) and now living in USA (education purposes) I can honestly say that the second amendment is completely worthless and it simply has served no purpose in a great country like USA except increasing the death toll.

Everyone has a gun out of insecurity and people here kill because on insecurity. I have been reading this thread and I see a lot of people carrying guns and have had some experiences with drawing them etc etc.

If it wasnt so easy to have a gun in this country you would not be so scared. Yes, certain other things could have happened but losing your life on the street because you drive a Porsche and some 17year old gangsta decided to f*ck with you and draw a gun at you would not have been possible. Neither, the "good guy" (read: you) would draw a gun as well and try to shoot a 17 year old.

Reminds me, I just saw the news about a guy who shot and killed a 15 year old with a shotgun because the kid was messin' with him and walked over to his loan.

These kind of events are completely unacceptable in a world-leading country. How is it possible you guys are not allowed to drink until you are 21 but you have the ability to take someones life so easily with a gun? It really does not make sense.

I do not have a gun, nor will I get one, in a case of a gun-point by a little gangsta I will give him anything he needs, because my life for sure does not worth $50.000 dollars.

Please note: I am american as well, my father grew up here in SC and lived for 11 years, I really like USA and the above is not a direct attack to any kind of party or president or history. It's just something I do not agree with because of my background.

[Brucelee]

"What I am saying is that a Gun is really no practical deterrent."

Sorry, Jim but you are DEAD wrong on this score. Ask anyone who has used one how this works. Moreover, ask any LEO about this. For many situations, the pulling of the gun is the end of the problem. In others, it is the ONLY way out! That depends on the asshat who is causing the issue.

As for Martial Arts vs. a gun. Forget it. It is not gonna happen in more than 1 out of 100 cases, even for guys like my namesake, who knew this all too well.

As for the other comments on the inappropriate use of guns, who can deny that with ANYTHING that has potential for harm. However, the plain fact is that when the law seeks to take guns away from the average citizen who fears for his safety, it allows the only guns to remain with the vermin in this culture who will ignore and if possible, harm the LEO and average citizens.

Hey, I went to an Ivy League college and graduate school, and I can spout all this reasonably sounding logic. We should be above violence, in a civilized society there is no plan for guns, etc etc.

Fact is, I also grew up in a ghetto. In the ghetto, the criminals laugh at the Ivy liberals. They call them "victims."

So again, I have no issue with folks who don't own or use a gun. I simply want them to allow me to protect myself my way and I will do the same for them. Legally of course!

[Brucelee]

"I do not have a gun, nor will I get one, in a case of a gun-point by a little gangsta I will give him anything he needs, because my life for sure does not worth $50.000 dollars."

You have missed the point. The little **************** may want your car AND your life and you won't know that until he smiles and pulls the trigger.

Then you will be both RIGHT and DEAD, ie dead right.

That is your choice, just don't make it have to be mine.

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by aBsOlUt

If it wasnt so easy to have a gun in this country you would not be so scared.

Very True, most of us would have already been killed for being easy prey. Many women would have been raped, or recovering from an assult. Being "Scared" would be the last thing we would have to worry about.

[aBsOlUt]

Originally Posted by tqtran

Very True, most of us would have already been killed for being easy prey. Many women would have been raped, or recovering from an assult. Being "Scared" would be the last thing we would have to worry about.

I take it as a sarcastic comment but tell me why in the EU there are not so many incidents or death as they are here in the USA? Neither so many rapes or gangsta gun-fights.

You sound like that if they were no guns to protect you would like live in a world full of criminals and they would also have the advantage.

It all comes down to an 'ego' perspective. I believe that my life worths more than the low-life gangsta that's about to kill me and that's what pisses me off. He has a great chance of killing me because guns are everywhere. No guns, no chance.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

You have missed the point. The little **************** may want your car AND your life and you won't know that until he smiles and pulls the trigger.

That's exactly my point. If guns were not allowed anywhere in this country chances are the little **************** would not have one, which either means the little **************** would not approach me to begin with or will just steal my car. It can stab me or beat me to death but that is much harder and they never know who they mess with but it can never smile and pull a trigger. If it had a gun? Simply, pull the trigger, bye bye, as you correctly said.

Guns promote the incident to become fatal. They are easy to use and a 15 year old can do it. Try fighting with a 15 year old and see who wins.

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by aBsOlUt

You sound like that if they were no guns to protect you would like live in a world full of criminals and they would also have the advantage.

Your perspective comes from someone that has forgotten the post Katrina events.
Many people that have seen first hand and eye witnessed, like myself, the post katrina events know that when criminals are left to prey on people, THEY WILL.
Sorry but one thing learned from post Katrina was that you can only rely on yourself to protect yourself. When you have seen babies killed, little girls raped and killed, women raped and they're bf/husbands killed, old people killed for supplies, rescue boats seized etc... All of this because the only people with guns are the bad guys. Do you know how many undocumented murders, rapes, and assults occured in post Katrina area? Ask any LEO that was down there and they will be happy to inform you.

[aBsOlUt]

While I respect and I do admit I have not seen post-Katrina real time events as you sound you have lived, I got to admit a catastrophe of this magnitute does not happen so often, which promotes criminal activity as you said so.

I was actually referring to an average situation with a city with high crime in some areas and low crime in some other.

By no means did I mean that the world would be "oh-so beatiful and nice" if guns were not allowed. I just believe that a lot of people would be breathing today.

Originally Posted by tqtran

You are oh so deluted in your thinking. If guns where not allowed, then the criminals would just get from from the black market.

EXAMPLE : Drugs are "not allowed", are you telling me that people are not illegally using drugs? Boy...remind me to tell my DEA friends that they are out of a job because drugs are "not allowed".

The black market that every 15-19 year old gangsta that knows about and has access to? Drugs are easier to become available and easier to distribute. In your country it appears that guns are even easier thats why you suffer so many deaths every year.

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

First off, this is the first time in 50 years that someone has even alluded to my being a Liberal, which is a little frightening all in itself.

Second, I am not advocating a Ban on Guns or the repeal of the 2nd Ammendment.

Third, I keep a Long Gun (12 Ga.) at home, loaded for Self-Protection and would immediately resort to it's use if the need ever arose, which I hope never happens.

Fourth, I am an ex-serviceman who has used weapons against people in Anger, and they didn't get up - ever.

Believe me, a fully munitioned F4 can rain down a whole lot more death & destruction than a simple Handgun. And unlike many of you, I have been shot at as well, practically daily on 3 Floats totalling 10 mos. on Station Yankee and 5 months on Station Dixie, flying MigCap, ResCap, and IronHand (the NAVY's equivalent of Wild Weasel) - Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground, and SAM Suppression.

I have no doubt that in the hands of a qualified, experienced, and confident individual, a Handgun can offer the desired protection. And I do not have any remorse in seeing a violent Street Punk or Addict's reign of terror ended without increasing the burden of the Taxpayer.

But, I equally have no doubt that many people brandishing Handguns are not properly prepared, either Mentally or Physically, to use them (despite having attended some training) when the need arises and that tragedy (for themselves and others) is most likely the result.

Like the MA devotees, many will stumble, fumble, and shake so badly that everyone on the Street except the intended target will be at risk. And don't think it won't happen to you, the Adrenanline rush alone will cause you to shake like a leaf. The first time I was shot at in Combat, my Flight Suit needed changing as soon as I trapped aboard - my initiation into a VERY Big Club!

We have people here who can't even change their Oil, Bleed their Brakes or change their MAF (no offense meant to anyone), and you want me to accept advocating them acquiring and carrying a Handgun in Public? Clearly, everyone should not do this, although admittedly they do retain that Right.

It's interesting that the Handguns displayed in this thread go waay beyond what is needed for basic self-defense. These Thoroughbred Heaters aren't any more effective than a simple H&R .32 Revolver. True, you can't squeeze 15 rounds into a Revolver, but if you're in a situation where you require that many rounds, you probably got yourself into something deeper than you had to (maybe because you were packing?). These seem to be Vanity pieces designed to boost Egos - to pass around for the admiration and agrandisement of their owner... That's OK, but are we still talking about basic self-defense here?

Like I said, I do not know the answer. But I have been into and out of some Street situations, both in this Country's Inner Cities and throughout the World, that many just see in the movies and I never once felt I needed a handgun to extricate myself. For now at least, I'm choosing to remain unarmed...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[bigislandboxster]

Hot button topic of the week it seems!
Has anyone looked at the stats of some other countries and their gun death rates? Didn't you ever wonder why countries like Japan and the UK have such low rates of death by handguns? Its because of 2 things I think....1. Its against the law to own one...and 2. They VIGOROUSLY prosecute and search for people who do! For some reason we the US seem to think we NEED to have them more than any other industrialized nation in the world. Yet we the US have BY FAR the highest death rates by handguns in the world...Doesn't anybody see the correlation? If the police weren't such chicken ****************s and giving parking tickets and busting potheads, maybe they would have more time to go after people who had them if the law existed.....Maybe if the NRA didn't have their hands in the politicians pockets we could do something about this. But our country has been too busy telling other countries how to live, when we can't even clean up our own mess....

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by aBsOlUt

That's exactly my point. If guns were not allowed anywhere in this country chances are the little **************** would not have one, which either means the little **************** would not approach me to begin with or will just steal my car.

You are oh so deluted in your thinking. If guns where not allowed, then the criminals would just get from from the black market.

EXAMPLE : Drugs are "not allowed", are you telling me that people are not illegally using drugs? Boy...remind me to tell my DEA friends that they are out of a job because drugs are "not allowed".