As close as it gets: IMS Save!

[Series9]

The good news about this one is that it was failing on the IMS side, not the engine side.

All the metal was isolated in the shaft. Although it took a while to clean up, it was contained.

The pan and filter were clean.


I fly turboprops with chip detectors, this would not have set that off. That's the scary part.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

All the metal was isolated in the shaft. Although it took a while to clean up, it was contained.The pan and filter were clean.

Hmm. Clean to the eye or clean to the tolerance of the bearings? Did you perform an engine oil analysis to see how much additional metal is in the oil?

I'd rebuild the entire engine. Just sayin'.

[Jake Raby]

Many people who get the guardian will remove it once it alarms and sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer.

It happens all the time.. I never dreamed it would happen, but I've busted at least a dozen people red handed that have done this over the last 3 years of the Guardian being on the market.

That said, Series 9... That engine isn't saved yet. In its current state with metal debris suspended that heavily in the oil, the engine isn't qualified for an LN retrofit. You'll have to carry out extensive oil system flushes, employ a spin on filter adaptor (to omit the bypass system that will send unfiltered oil to the rest of the engine) and then fit with a filter mag.

Even with all that done, the chances of the retrofit component being taken out by even the slightest residual amount of this ferromagnetic material is great. Looks like a good place to employ a competitors product, to me.. Please post the results! :-)

That said, this amount of debris would have set an IMS Alert with an IMS Guardian. The engines and IMSBs I killed here on purpose during the development were often times not as great as this one is illustrated.

If this engine was at my facility, it would come all the way apart and be ultrasonically cleaned. Why? Because I want to maintain my record of 414 IMS Retrofits with never having a post- process failure and if a retrofitted bearing that we install fails later, we aren't just another shop that can throw the finger at the retrofit component as being bad. No retrofit component can live through super heat treated ferromagnetic debris being suspended in the oil, and it won't just take out the IMS Bearing, it'll take out the oil pump, main and rod bearings and all the rest of the internally lubricated components...

The smaller and finer the debris is, the easier it suspends in the oil and the further it travels. I'd rather have chunks in the oil as tiny, microscopic particles.

Yes, we've learned from the mistakes of others.

The Code Of Conduct that our IMS Solution Certified Installers must operate under will not allow them to apply a retrofit component to an engine that has seen a failure of this degree thats been pictured here. One of them did this last year and when he returned the old bearing to register it, his Certification was pulled within 2 hours.

Approach with care and warn the owner. Lots of engines that are "saved", shouldn't be. The perfect engine for a retrofit is the one with a "perfect" IMS Bearing at the time of retrofit.

Also, trust that the outer seal fails at the same rate as the inner seal of the IMS Bearing. As the balls and races lose control the wobbling and vibration take the seals out simultaneously. On the outer side of the IMSB high amounts of engine oil are present to wash the metal off the bearing and into the oil system. This is why the outside of the bearing appeared to be clean. It may have been clean, but the debris is just inside every nook and cranny of the engine, now.

On the innermost side, thats pictured and shows all the material, there's no engine oil supply to wash the metal away and elsewhere into the engine. This is why it appears that all the metal was caught in the shaft, but thats not the case. I have done the forensics on these episodes a few dozen times and can state this with a degree of certainty.

None of this is new.. Its not only common sense, its posted and stated many times over, including here:
http://imsretrofit.com/bearing-already-failing/

[Series9]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

... the engine isn't qualified for an LN retrofit.

Actually, it is.

See here from the LN website:

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Series9

Actually, it is.

See here from the LN website:

Yes, thats a Preferred Installer, not a Certified Installer. Huge difference between the two. Also, that statement also means that its not fully qualified, because it doesn't qualify for a warranty.

From this side of the fence the primary concern is the effectiveness and long term service of the retrofitted bearing. Constantly these bearings are being swapped from engines that were found to be previously failing. Shops are not carrying out pre- inspections before retrofits are done. I find issues with engines and DQ those engines routinely, these things can be anything from a sump full of IMS failure debris, to a chunk of a timing chain roller, of a handful of timing chain wear rail material. At that point, we stop and go into a reactive mode. Thats the other part of the procedure I developed, and every engine is presumed guilty until proven innocent. When I instruct classes all across N. America I ask on the beginning of day #2, who carries out a pre- qualification before carrying out an IMS Retrofit. All year long, I have had TWO people out of about 400 raise their hands. Put clearly- an IMS Procedure isn't completed, as directed, without the engine being pre- qualified first.

Yes, it may be the customer's decision, because it's his car. You can trust that even if that customer makes the decision to take the risk, and the engine experiences a failure that he still won't be happy. What is "ok" today and seemingly going to save him money, is not going to be okay if things don't work out.

As long as he doesn't make phone calls this way, and he is responsible for his own decisions and risks, all is well for everyone except for him.

When I act as the customer's advisor I treat the car like it was my own. That means that at times I have disassembled a complete engine just to clean debris from it when carrying out a retrofit and caught one at mid failure, like this one. It didn't cost him anything, because I knew it would cost me everything if it failed. All he did was sign on the dotted line saying he had ben informed and that he granted us permission to strip the whole thing. Did I make any money? No. Did I lose any money? Yes. Did I retain a reputation and keep my character? Yes. Thats all that matters here.

If the proper steps are carried out after a failure of this level, the engine at least stands
a chance to survive. These steps are extensive and time consuming. If those things are not done, it doesn't stand a chance at living a full life.

The fine line between being a "Hero" or a "Zero" is so faint that its invisible. One second is all that separates the two.

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others, and some of us have had IMS Retrofit bearings fail, and others haven't. IMSR #415 was finished here yesterday, and I post inspect it on Monday, just like I pre- inspected it last Monday.

[BruceH]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others........

So very true

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Yes, thats a Preferred Installer, not a Certified Installer. Huge difference between the two. Also, that statement also means that its not fully qualified, because it doesn't qualify for a warranty.

From this side of the fence the primary concern is the effectiveness and long term service of the retrofitted bearing. Constantly these bearings are being swapped from engines that were found to be previously failing. Shops are not carrying out pre- inspections before retrofits are done. I find issues with engines and DQ those engines routinely, these things can be anything from a sump full of IMS failure debris, to a chunk of a timing chain roller, of a handful of timing chain wear rail material. At that point, we stop and go into a reactive mode. Thats the other part of the procedure I developed, and every engine is presumed guilty until proven innocent. When I instruct classes all across N. America I ask on the beginning of day #2, who carries out a pre- qualification before carrying out an IMS Retrofit. All year long, I have had TWO people out of about 400 raise their hands. Put clearly- an IMS Procedure isn't completed, as directed, without the engine being pre- qualified first.

Yes, it may be the customer's decision, because it's his car. You can trust that even if that customer makes the decision to take the risk, and the engine experiences a failure that he still won't be happy. What is "ok" today and seemingly going to save him money, is not going to be okay if things don't work out.

As long as he doesn't make phone calls this way, and he is responsible for his own decisions and risks, all is well for everyone except for him.

When I act as the customer's advisor I treat the car like it was my own. That means that at times I have disassembled a complete engine just to clean debris from it when carrying out a retrofit and caught one at mid failure, like this one. It didn't cost him anything, because I knew it would cost me everything if it failed. All he did was sign on the dotted line saying he had ben informed and that he granted us permission to strip the whole thing. Did I make any money? No. Did I lose any money? Yes. Did I retain a reputation and keep my character? Yes. Thats all that matters here.

If the proper steps are carried out after a failure of this level, the engine at least stands
a chance to survive. These steps are extensive and time consuming. If those things are not done, it doesn't stand a chance at living a full life.

The fine line between being a "Hero" or a "Zero" is so faint that its invisible. One second is all that separates the two.

We are all only as good as the outcome of our next job. Some of us care more about that than others, and some of us have had IMS Retrofit bearings fail, and others haven't. IMSR #415 was finished here yesterday, and I post inspect it on Monday, just like I pre- inspected it last Monday.

Please note the portion in red. This is a stand-up guy.

[Series9]

Originally Posted by thstone

Hmm. Clean to the eye or clean to the tolerance of the bearings? Did you perform an engine oil analysis to see how much additional metal is in the oil?

I'd rebuild the entire engine. Just sayin'.

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

I hear you brother! I am the guy who has always said that swapping in a replacement or eBay engine is by far the most cost effective solution - these cars are simply not worth the rebuild in most cases.

But thinking that this engine can simply and cheaply be repaired is a recipe for failure. The damage has already done to all of the friction surfaces and 500 mile oil change intervals after the fact won't fix it.

The engine can certainly "pull through" and run for awhile longer if that is all the owner is looking for, but eventually it will likely suffer a major failure due to the damage that wasn't repaired. Or worse, the "just-get-it-running-again" car gets sold and the next owner is stuck with an engine that is living on borrowed time.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

The engine can certainly "pull through" and run for awhile longer if that is all the owner is looking for, but eventually it will likely suffer a major failure due to the damage that wasn't repaired. Or worse, the "just-get-it-running-again" car gets sold and the next owner is stuck with an engine that is living on borrowed time.

There ought to be a watch list of cars that had the IMS swap after failure had begun without a full tear down. I'm guessing if the pan is cleaned, and oil changed before a PPI, the prospective buyer will have no idea that the engine has little radioactive bits deep inside. Nor would the seller disclose this as it would require a steep reduction in the ask. So for the lurkers, be very wary of a car with a recent IMS swap or one with little mileage since the swap. Maybe owners should ask for photos of the bearing from their mechanic at the moment of initial extraction. This can be put in the service records come time to sell the car. Sure this photo evidence can be staged but thats pretty shady stuff that I doubt a shop with a long and well known history would risk for no real profit. On second thought maybe a short video burned to DVD would be better. After all this a $10k plus concern that could give a potential buyer some peace of mind. The shop could charge accordingly.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

There ought to be a watch list of cars that had the IMS swap after failure had begun without a full tear down. I'm guessing if the pan is cleaned, and oil changed before a PPI, the prospective buyer will have no idea that the engine has little radioactive bits deep inside. Nor would the seller disclose this as it would require a steep reduction in the ask. So for the lurkers, be very wary of a car with a recent IMS swap or one with little mileage since the swap. Maybe owners should ask for photos of the bearing from their mechanic at the moment of initial extraction. This can be put in the service records come time to sell the car. Sure this photo evidence can be staged but thats pretty shady stuff that I doubt a shop with a long and well known history would risk for no real profit. On second thought maybe a short video burned to DVD would be better. After all this a $10k plus concern that could give a potential buyer some peace of mind. The shop could charge accordingly.

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

At the end of the day, from the developer's stand point, any engine that has a bearing failing shouldn't be retrofitted.

If any retrofit bearing fails, no matter if the customer was told or not, it still tarnishes the retrofit reputation. It also has a lot to do with the way the customer is "told" about what **may** happen in the future. If I explain these things to someone, they certainly won't move forward. No unicorns or rainbows here.

If they can't afford to fix it the right way today, before it fails, they damn sure won't be able to afford to repair it after it fails. Then they'll want someone else higher up in the food chain to "stand behind their product". That may be the shop that installed the retrofit bearing, or it may be the retrofit component manufacturer.

Then, they'll be told "NO" and they'll get pissy, then they'll decide to scream about it on a forum... Meanwhile, no one knows the whole backstory.

In my professional classes, I added two hours of info specifically on the topic of pre- qualification prior to an IMSR.

Thinking that's a very fair way to do it as some clients don't have the financial resources to do it up 'the official way'.

Fair to who? Its not fair to the technology or the developers to put these components in harm's way. The people that lack the "financial resources" are the ones who will expect someone else to pay the bill for them. They scream the loudest and whine hardest.

[Ebell914]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

Jake - my car has a retrofit from the previous owner. Can I contact you with my VIN to see if it was registered?

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The proper method of registering an IMS Bearing Retrofit requires the old bearing to be sent back to LN, where it becomes part of a data base.

At the end of the day, from the developer's stand point, any engine that has a bearing failing shouldn't be retrofitted.

If any retrofit bearing fails, no matter if the customer was told or not, it still tarnishes the retrofit reputation. It also has a lot to do with the way the customer is "told" about what **may** happen in the future. If I explain these things to someone, they certainly won't move forward. No unicorns or rainbows here.

If they can't afford to fix it the right way today, before it fails, they damn sure won't be able to afford to repair it after it fails. Then they'll want someone else higher up in the food chain to "stand behind their product". That may be the shop that installed the retrofit bearing, or it may be the retrofit component manufacturer.

Then, they'll be told "NO" and they'll get pissy, then they'll decide to scream about it on a forum... Meanwhile, no one knows the whole backstory.

In my professional classes, I added two hours of info specifically on the topic of pre- qualification prior to an IMSR.



Fair to who? Its not fair to the technology or the developers to put these components in harm's way. The people that lack the "financial resources" are the ones who will expect someone else to pay the bill for them. They scream the loudest and whine hardest.

If the developers are going to sell their product on the open market to whomever, then they give away any rights to it and people are free to do what they wish. Maybe the developers should only provide their product to licensed shops if this is a concern?

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Series9

In an ideal world, perhaps. Not everyone is able or willing to spend $20k on a car that's worth $9k.

He'll be doing oil/filter changes at 500 mile intervals for a couple thousand miles.

It's the customer's car and the customer's decision. I think this one has a very good chance of pulling through.

Being self-employed myself, I own each boiler I touch...and have no issue red-flagging it if the cheap customer wants a dangerous issue bypassed or patched. If it's in your shop, and cust does not want to take it to your standards (I Assume you do have some standards) then you pass. Pretty simple.