Check out this month's Motor trend
 

great issue of Motor Trend this month. What Porsche was hoping to avoid has occured, A 997S v. CaymanS comparo.
If that weren't enough the pit the 911 against a Z06 and the V8 Aston.
(They give a resounding thumbs up to the balsa wood-carbon reinforced Z06).
some excellent graphical analysis.

It has begun, open season on the 911 (from within the Brand).

great shots of the GT 40 'spyder' and a lengthy article on the Ferrarari Scag. across many continents.

Man, I hate to admit it but the 911S got SMOKED by the Zo6. Oh well.

It might have been the 505HP?

This month's issue of EVO pits the Z06 agains the GT3 RS and Lotus Exige and Noble.
Looking at some of the photos I have to say and never thought I would say this but I prefer the interior of the Z06 over that of the 997. There I said it.
THe three spoke wheel of the Z06 looks far more to my liking than the VW'esque 997 wheel.

anyhooo.... the Z06 apparently has balsa wood covered in carbon for underfloor treatment. The only daily drive-able of the bunch according to the Brits.
Their only complaint was that it was the only one of the bunch that was too straightforward to drive and kind of boring compared to the others that were mored demmanding of a less than skilled driver.

I think the 997 and 997S credibility si going to start to take an enourmous hit with more and more of these comparos. Its a double whamy: The Corvette is seriously new and improved and the CaymanS is the mid engine 911 everyone has been clamoring for after 40 years. Not to mention that Aston's V8 is knocking on the Plush GT door with performance to boot.

Ah, but have you driven the most recent corvette? It's a totally different driving experience than a Porsche. That and while that interior might look good in magazines, it is NOT a nice place to be in in reality. Creaky and cheap are the first two words that come to mind.

My good friend has a C6, (not the Z06 though) and even after a year he still feels that the car is a bit intimidating to drive. You don't get the same sense of confidence that you get out of driving a Boxster--that sense that you can really wring the car out to its full potential. It requires a lot of faith to harness all that power for good. :)

We've done a number of canyon runs lately and I'm always either right on his butt or leaving him waaaaaaaaaay behind and he's no slouch of a driver.

Alot dont take the idea of a base 911 versus the best OEM Corvette available. Lets run a 911 Turbo or GT3 against a Z06.

I obviously love Porsche but I have to say that I like the fact that an American car finally wins something and gets some respect. Plus, this is going to make Porsche work that much harder to make sure that they don't get beat again resulting in better cars for us all!

I can buy 2 zo6s for the price of one 911 Turbo. Apples to oranges.

Face it, Porsche has a problem on its hands. Performance per dollar, the zo6 is a ton of car.

Regarding the issue of the C6 interior, it is candidly, much nicer than my 911s (IMHO).

As far as creaks and rattles, I will take you out in my '04 911 and you can enjoy quite a concert.

C'mon, lets give credit where it is due.

Oh, and I will be happy to take on any stock boxster with a stock c6. Sorry, but that would be a serious butt whipping on any but the shorter and twistiest course.

I think we can love our Boxsters without making them what they are not.

Now, if Porsche would simply give us a 300HP Boxster S, I for one would believe they are listening to us.

That's true. There are a bunch of cheaper cars that can meet or beat it's performance numbers, and nearly all of it's prestige brand rivals are faster (albeit more expensive).

Boxster has the same problem - the S2000 is a hell of a car, and around $20k cheaper, and performance in the base box no better compared to BMW and Mercedes oferings.

The solution seems simple, no? A 300-hp base Boxster and a 400-hp base 911 :)

"The solution seems simple, no? A 300-hp base Boxster and a 400-hp base 911"

I agree and I don't see the problem here, other than economics. I really believe that Porsche sits there and tries to figure out exactly how much $ they can extract per HP.

Hence, the myriad of models on the 911, an S, a 4, a 4S, a TURBO, a GT3, etc, etc.

Same goes for the options and models, ie, a coupe, a cab, a targa. Whats next, a coupe/targa combined?

After a while, it wears thin, at least to me.

Let us have a 300HP Boxster S for say $50K and I think the world will continue to beat a path to the Porsche door. Man, I woud really love to drive a 300 HP Box S with a 6 speed manual!

If I was buying a new 911, for my $75K, I would DEMAND a 400 HP base coupe, normally aspiriated.

Where is the issue here?

In accordance with their slogan "There is no substitute", Porsche has sought to manage their product line to maximize investment return, and minimize internal competition between models. Of secondary importance, apparently, is competition with other brands.
This is much like the IBM marketing philosopy in the '80s, when they would never even mention or admit that there was any other computer manufacturer, and therefore never compared their products with others, at least in front of their customers.
Not a bad strategy if there is in fact "no substitute", but ultimately there were a lot of substitutes for IBM, and there are more and more for Porsche as well.

I think the term arrogant signified the IBM culture of the 80s. I think the same term could be applied to Porsche managment.

Pride goeth before a fall?

I might point outthat IBM no longer manufactures PCs...

It was truly a fascinating series of articles. 911 versus Z06, 911 versus Cayman, and 911 versus Vanquish. The 911 versus Cayman article was pretty interesting. The cornering ability of the Cayman damn near got it the win on the track. It's really only a few ponies behind spanking the 911 on the twisties.

I also agree on the Z06 - it's a hell of a car! World class performance at a "reasonable" price. One thing to note is that every review I've read (including the Motor Trend comparo) mentions that the Z06 isn't necessarily ideal as a daily driver.

But both IBM and Porsche made huge turnarounds. In the mid 90's Lou Gertsner the new CEO came in from American Express Travel Corp and turned them around. He took IBM from a company that wasted money on high rent downtown offices housing overpaid salespeople, and sent them home with a laptop and created a low expense environment of customer satisfaction, services and products the customers wanted.

In 1993 Porsche was at one of it's lowest points as well. After suffering through the 924/944/968/914 and the 928, which incidentally was supposed to replace the 911, Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche CEO looked to the Boxster and 911, those two only to turn them around. The critical point being the 1993 Detroit Auto Show that debuted the all new prototype Boxster. The car was an extreme hit and the rest is history when it hit the US in '97. In Wendelin's own words, "I think the decision process for Porsche in the future is more based on the brand than on the real product. And anybody who knows sports cars knows Porsche. So we will keep the tradition alive."

I now ask: Is this a philosophy that will assure future chapters for Porsche history?...Not by the tone of this thread.

"In Wendelin's own words, "I think the decision process for Porsche in the future is more based on the brand than on the real product. And anybody who knows sports cars knows Porsche. So we will keep the tradition alive."

I now ask: Is this a philosophy that will assure future chapters for Porsche history?...Not by the tone of this thread."

Managing your brand IS important. However, I think Porsche is not seeing the forest for the trees.

As Porsche manages the brand, it competitors continue to improve their cars at an alarming rate (alarming, that is, if you are Porsche).

PAY ATTENTION BOYS!

Put another way, I love driving the Boxster because of what it is, not how it relates to Porsches "fabled" history, or the 550 or whatever. It is simply a great car to drive.

When it stops being that, or if something eclipses it, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO gone!

History is nice, as history.

BruceLee you are very right! This Motor Trend article really is the first ripple.
Porsche has big problem, even if no one buys the Z06 the fact that it so convincinlgy trounces the CarreraS (flat out beats it at Laguna Seca :eek: :eek: ) in every aspect but braking really is NO GOOD for the cred of Porsche's flag ship car.
THe 911 engine's limitation to produce power is going to be too big a disadvantage with the Z06 in position to ONLY GET BETTER.

I can see an attitude developing of "Porsche? yeah good... **if **you get a turbo or GT3..otherwise its just living off past glory"

Motor Trend isn't exaclty a controversial car mag and they use some very spicy language against the 911 "The 911 is dead Long live the Cayman".
I guarantee you the boys in Stuggart are following this and the pandora's box they unleashed very closely.


said it before but Porsche's strategy about holding back the mid engine cars may no longer be entirely under their control. I can already see many running the CaymanS instead of 911 for racing. :eek:

btw, I sat in C5, C6 and it was crap interior. THe Z06 (according to the article) has much more expensive interior treatment which the Magazine points to higher base price partly accounting for Chevy putting it in the 911 $$$ territory. Not the bargain basement exotic it was before.

also interesting was that MotorTrend said it was too loud and feisty for daily use while EVO said it was the only one they compared (GT3, Lotus Exige, Noble) that was useful for daily use. I guess they are more hardcore in Europe.

Hi,

It's all Ebb and Flow. A Company riding high never anticipates a time when their fortunes wane, all the while they become the Benchmark which their competitors shoot for.

Add to this that greater Public Ownership causes Management to adopt Short Term Thinking and Goals, loosing some semblence of the Broader Picture.

Porsche's 'Miraculous' rise had much more to do with the Cayenne than it did with either the Boxster or 911. Boxster Sales have never been truly remarkable and the 911's Sales were slipping until just 18 mos. ago.

IBM's problems really began in the early '80's when their Corporate-tainted vision prevented them from ever seeing the PC overshadow the Main Frame and Mini-Frame - IBM's Bread & Butter. I mean the ThinkPad wasn't even introduced until 1992!

By the time they came to their senses, the Competition had already left them in a hole so deep that they never truly recovered. Their PC Manufacturing Business was sold to Lenovo Group Limited, formerly known as Legend Group Ltd., in the PRC, further widening our Trade Deficits.

But, back on point, if Porsche doesn't lose that Inbred Mentality, they could go the way of the Snail Darter in a relatively few years.

As Bruce rightly points out, it's time to Wake Up to what the Competition is offering and what the Consumer Wants. IMHO, the Snooze Alarm has been hit too many times already...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Indeed! You have to wonder if these boys from Stuttgart ever drive their competitors cars or read any magazines other than Panorama?

Am I the only one that thinks, generally, Porsche customers aren't Vette folk? And that the Z06 (leaf springs?) is more of a threat to the Viper?
Apples to apples? What’s your constant? Price? Performance? Prestige?

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chevrolet has the most impressive numbers-to-price ratio out there. And I also doubt Porsche is scrambling and worrying about sales plummeting because of that. What is BMW doing about the threat of the Accord?

I could be missing the boat on this one, but I have to think Porsche is doing what they need to be doing at the moment (regardless of what we forum users/magazines think).

I tested the C6 before I bought my 987S. I was especially "impressed" with the crooked heads up display in the one I drove. That sent me a clear message about GM "quality." And the only thing you can do with 400hp or 505hp today is brag about it, unless you track the car. Each to his own, but I'll stick with Porsche, thank you.

"And the only thing you can do with 400hp or 505hp today is brag about it, unless you track the car. "

Huh? The same thing can be said for 258HP.

And we all love the Box. It is simply that Porsche should hear the footsteps coming.

And don't get us started on Porsche build quality, you see there are these RMS issues ..............................

Because of the Z06?!?

when the z06 trounces the 911 so bad it hurts the track cred of the brand as a whole. No debating that. They need to fix it quick.

the footsteps are also the CaymanS, the Hondas, and Audis who smell blood in the water.
How quickly things can change in only one model year.

The Z06 is impressive. However...

I fail to see why a car with an engine TWICE THE SIZE as a Porsches' should send zee Germans back to the drawing boards. (Heck that engine is bigger than the Carrera GT's) Displacement is America's recipe for better numbers and terrific track times (and usually they're 1/4 miles). Enough of it will eventually beat even a Porsche.

Yeah yeah yeah, the Z06 is almost half as much. But I reiterate my contention that people that buy 911s aren't considering a Corvette as an alterternative option.

The Z06 is impressive and anyone nitpicking interior or GM quality just goes to show how much attention it is really getting. Can't just dismiss this one as a GM stoplight rocket.

IMHO people buy Porsche cars because of performance and the name. The marketing of the name only goes so far. Consumers in the know will have a much harder time popping for a more expensive 911 and knowing it will get squarely trounced by every Z06 they meet on the street.

As my 986 is not a daily driver ( same for a 911 if I owned one ) the only area where the 911 has the advantage wouldn’t matter to me.

I surely wouldn’t be able to stand it having to pretend I don’t notice the vette next to me at a stoplight because it could be a Z06. Easy today as I can always fall back on the Z06 costs 50% more. What would I use to convince myself if I had a 911? “Porsche there is no Substitute …”?

Not only is it no performance contest but it does it at a cost point closer to that of the Porsche lowest priced models.

Porsche and the true believers may be poo-pooing the Z06 but I know that I am impressed and have been thinking about one. Especially because GM is now allowing employee discounting. :cheers:

True, if these consumers are race car drivers that spend most of their time on the track. Otherwise, I disagree. Who here could have purchased something faster than their Boxster? Probably all of us, right? These "in the know" consumers are "cost per option" or "dollars per second" shoppers. Clearly this consumer you describe is one that is buying the fastest car for the least amount of money. And if this is your priority, then the Chevy is the answer to your prayers. I don't think anyone should doubt that. But when has Porsche made "A Great Value" a priority?

By similar logic, why would anyone buy a BMW 530 knowing it will get squarely trounced by every a Chysler 300 Hemi they meet on the street?

Clearly, I am not poo-pooing the Z06. I just don't consider it a major threat to Porsche.

And if you think you're getting employee pricing on a Z06 anytime soon...

Maybe I travel in different circles, but I don't see anyone bragging about horsepower in the 200s, nor would I want less than the 276 in the 987S. The horsepower race is getting out of hand and unless you live in Montana or track the car, anything in the 400-500 or more range is simply ridiculous, unless you get off boasting to other people that yours is bigger than theirs.

I think Porsche should be more worried at the bottom end than the top, because the Boxster and Cayenne are the volume cars that pay the bills. There are plenty of other carmakers capable of replicating the performance of both of these models for less money.

As far as RMS goes, I can't comment because I haven't had any such problems with the two that I've owned. I do think that Porsche stinks at addressing those issues and their dealer service is spotty at best. Again, that's going to hurt them more at the bottom end because that's where they get their newer customers -- the ones who may be surprised to learn that -- for the same or more money -- they're not treated as well as they were at Lexus, etc.

I think Bruce's point is that it matters not how much HP a car has as long as its enough for its weight. Take a trip to your local track and you'll se a ton of 150 HP Miatas.
500 HP is just as practical for the track as it is for streets.
You are aware that the VAST majority of Porsche owners never go near a track with their 250-400 HP cars? For street use that's more than enough power.

So a free breathing Boxster/911 is just as impractical as z06.

even if it feels funny cruising on the highway in 2nd gear :p

Believe me if these cars didn't run a $3 a gallon 93 octane I'd drive one everyday to the 7-11 or Starbucks.

All things considered, $3/gal gas is a cheap expense compared with my other Porsche ownership costs! :)

that's too bad. Since buying this Boxster nearly two years/15K miles ago I haven't had to make a single repair. All maintenance.

"Yeah yeah yeah, the Z06 is almost half as much. But I reiterate my contention that people that buy 911s aren't considering a Corvette as an alterternative option."
__________________




As a 911 re-seller, I can tell you that you are dead wrong on this score.

I'm talking about cars being purchased from the showroom. Used cars are a different ballgame Brucelee. Neither Porsche nor Chevy directly benefits from used car transactions. (Like buying a CD from Walmart vs. buying a cd from a used CD store. The artist doesn't make any money one the latter.)

Sure, there will be people out there debating between an 02 911 Turbo and an 06 Z06. But I'm trying to keep things "apples to apples" by comparing new cars to new cars.

Before I bought my Boxster, I considered some other cars, including the Corvette. I just couldn't get over the notion of paying that much for a Chevy.

Corvettes may have good performance, but they are a dime-a-dozen, and seemingly driven mostly by women in this area. No thanks.

Hi Jeph,

I could already get employee discounts about 2 months ago. That was the last time I checked.

Anyone who has access to the restricted GM employee dealer inventory website can get a discounted Z06 in five minutes.

This was for employee discounts off of dealer inventory, which isn't as great as the discount you get on a factory order. IIRC I saw a couple I could take immediately in the upper 50's.

Holy smokes! I have to concede from this debate. You guys would not believe how much this topic has been on my mind! That shouldn't be so.

So, inconclusion...
I love Porsche.
I love the Z06.
I love you all!

Well then, how 'bout them K&N filters...

I will expand. Since I deal in very late model used cars and am in constant contact with the local Porsche dealer, I can tell you that cars like the new Corvette (both the regular C6 and the ZO6) ARE attracting potential buyers who would be looking at new Boxsters and 911s.

Look at the value prop of the base C6 at about $45K out the door vs. a 911 coupe at say $75K.

Frankly, the base C6 is faster, handles better, is safer, and has more "options" as standard equipment vs the 911. Oh, and I can drop some golf bags in the hatch of the C6.

The Porsche management types will ignore this type of value issue at their own peril.

IMHO!

Interesting thread, anyone have a scan of the CaymanS vs 911 article?

For the record a used Corvette C5 in Oz is more expensive than a new Boxter S.

Bruce are you aware that your company's URL is not hyperlinked?

www.belloffmotorworks.citymaker.com

I just tried it and it seemed to work? Am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks