I just bought a beautiful mess... care to express an opinion?
 

Hey everyone! Long time Porsche fan, used to own a beautiful 1969 912 years ago. Been doing the BMW thing for a while but had an opportunity to pick up a 1998 Boxster 2.5 Tiptronic today with 80k miles and what the owner described as having a "blown engine" per the dealer. I'm fairly mechanical but have never done a complete engine swap. I've been lurking on this site for a couple of weeks now and reading everything I can get my hands on including all of the 101Projects on Pelican parts. The car is in incredible condition, extremely clean and well taken care of. Original owner, never in the rain or snow and it shows! So here is the down-low:

Per the previous owner: he left his house one morning and a block up the street the check engine light comes on and it starts running really rough. He drives it back home and calls the dealer (Plaza Porsche in St. Louis) they come pick it up and diagnose it as internal engine damage and the owner says no thanks, just bring in back. They delivered it back to his house. He claims after they unloaded it off the flatbed they actually drove it into his garage, still running rough of course, but it started and ran. This was roughly August of 2011. It has been sitting in his garage every since.

He provided me the invoice from Plaza which states what they did, which follows: "CAR CAME IN AND CHECK ENGINE LIGHT WAS ON AND FLASHING, CAR WAS RUNNING ROUGH, CHECKED FAULTS IN SYSTEM AND FOUND 2, MISFIRES ON CYLINDER 3 AND O2 SENSOR, REPLACED #3 IGNITION COIL AND 02 SENSOR, CAR STILL RAN ROUGH, NOT ALL CYLINDERS FIRING, PULLED ALL SPARK PLUGS AND PERFORMED COMPRESSION TEST FOUND CYLINDER 3 WITH LEAKAGE, INTERNAL ENGINE DAMAGE, CLIENT ADVISED AND TOWED CAR OUT OF SERVICE"

So almost 3 years later I pick it up today and put a new battery in, everything electronically works and for fun I tried starting. It cranked fine and fired up but only runs for a second or two (roughly) then dies. Granted the gas is very old and so is everything else that has been sitting for 3 years. I checked the oil on the dipstick and it looked very clean with no signs of metal or coolant. I am hopeful that someone can point me in a direction. I was planning on doing my own compression test of the cylinders but wanted to throw this out to you guys as I've read some impressive threads on here where you guys have seen almost everything. So any thoughts you might have or suggestions of things to try (before I start pulling the engine and buying another off of ebay) would be greatly appreciated! Thanks - great site!

Tony

Until you diagnose the problem, DO NOT START THE ENGINE. The failure could be for a multitude of reasons, but none of them will improve by running the engine. You can do very expensive damage by running it. Plenty of threads here where owners kept running their engine and it finally damaged itself beyond repair. At that point you have a $10K boat anchor.

My guess is a rod issue, but I'm just a shade tree mechanic. Good luck with your adventure.

Anytime engine damage is suspected the oil filter should be removed & inspected for metal etc. It is made from paper so cut the ends off & spread the filter open so you can inspect it for foreign debris. Drag a magnet thru any particles you find to see if they are iron based metal. The filter housing is like a screw-on cup that holds about 3/4quart of oil so be prepared to contain the oil.

Go Cardinals!

There just happens to be a 2005 3.2 S engine with 18K miles on it for $8,000 or best offer with free shipping. It is at quality Porsche parts and I have bought several things from them and always been satisfied. Be a good buy if you find out you need one before it is sold.

I just pulled these codes: P0300, P0306, P0303, P1319, P1318, P1315

Misfire on cylinders 3 & 6.

If it was me:
Remove oil filter as BY suggested, even drop the oil pan for inspection.
remove coils and plugs for inspection.
Check for compression.
If you are lucky, it's only bad coils.

Spent the night in the garage getting to know this one. Pulled all the spark plugs and had 170-190 psi per cylinder with the exception of cylinder #3. #3 had 0 psi. Yep, 0. I was able to look in the cylinder and see the piston moving in and out, but obviously no real diagnosis while the whole thing is still in the car. I'm guessing this is a valve problem. Any thoughts on what kind of valve failure is common with these motors?

Wonder if it's a slipped cylinder sleeve.

I would put a boroscope in there and see what's going on.

Tag
 

I want to follow this thread

Just start removing that head now....save some time.

If it were me.

first is the borescope to see if the #3 piston is holed, if yes, the motor comes out for inspection likely new motor, if no-

Pull the Filter and oil pan - if there are metal chips in there and they are magnetic, look to the IMSB next, and there are plenty of thread on THAT in this forum

If no metal , pull the cam cover and look for a broken valve spring.

If no broken valve spring, dump the head and look for a bent valve indicating a valve timing issue possibly IMS- .

For the head I take the engine out of the car for clearance.

Best of luck! I hope its a valve spring!

So forgive me, but I've never dug very deep into a motor before so a lot of questions keep popping up in my head. Today I plan on pulling the oil filter and checking for metal. I don't have a boroscope but don't mind picking one up to see. If those two things check out and I need to dig into the valves (after reading the engine teardown on 101 projects) it looks like this can be done in the car but some special tools are needed (the camshaft holding tool). The part I don't fully understand, is, can you pull the camshaft assembly out (all together) to presumably access a valve spring and then put it back together? Are there "timing" issues I need to be aware of or would have to deal with? I have seen a lot of threads about needing the $800 tool to properly set timing. I need to figure out what point it just makes more sense to buy a $3k ebay motor...

Thanks for the great information!

I love harbor freight!

Inspection Camera - Save on this Digital Inspection Camera

A compression test will tell you if a cylinder isn't working properly .
An air-leak test will tell you if it's block-side or head-side .
After a quick boroscope to look for obvious piston-top/cylinder damage , that's where I'd head next ....

Pulled the oil filter and cut it open, no metal. Pulled the oil pan/cover no metal shavings. Oil was very clean.

The borescope I bought from harbor freight was too large of a diameter to fit in the cylinder. Looks like I need to order one online as I can't find anything local.

Any thoughts on pulling the camshaft cover - regarding timing?

sounds like a fun adventure. I have a boroscope and the idea of it sounds better than the reality of what you can actually figure out with the thing, at least for a valve cover removal to see if a spring is broken would be my next step. i dont recall exactly but from other threads ive read im prettysure you can remove the valve cover and even the camshafts without loosing the timing

aneal,
I am doing a similar project on a 2001 Boxster S. If you need to drop,inspect & rebuild the engine we'll have many opportunities to compare notes. If you have not done this work on a sophisticated,cramped engine before, I would ask the Forum for advice on tools,skill level and equipment required. Depending on how much of the work you do yourself, a complete engine rebuild would cost much more than you paid for the car. So the careful diagnosis is a wise first step.
Good Luck !

Alright guys... run with this: drained the oil - very clean, no antifreeze, no metal, pulled the oil filter and cut it in half - no metal shavings of any sort visible, pulled the oil pan/cover and no metal - little bit of settled dirt, but overall clean.

Got a different borescope today, as the one I linked to from Harbor Freight didn't fit - go figure. The new one can take pics and video, I captured some and can post them if you think it would be helpful, but the top of the piston looks fine, the cylinder walls look good and all the the valves look good. I was able to spin the motor (by hitting the starter for a sec - borescope removed) and see the valves in different positions so they look like they are operating. Can't see anything that looks out of place or wrong - but I'm a novice here. What should I be looking for?

Wouldn't a blown head gasket allow antifreeze into the oil or into the cylinder?

If the rings failed wouldn't there be oil in the cylinder? There was a small amount in the bottom of the cylinder, but only a very small amount.

0 psi confirmed one more time.

Next?

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leak down, and listen to where the air is going...

I have never done a leak down test before... extremely logical suggestion. Tool shop was closed for the day before I had a chance to go grab a tester.

New development: A buddy came over and I was showing him what the inside looks like and I had him spin the motor by hand to watch the valves open and close. The exhaust valves are not in sync. It looks like one is seating all the way into the head but the other does not go as flush. I've attached a pic I snapped with the borescope. The pic is using a 90 mirror looking down (small amount of oil sitting in the bottom of the cylinder) and the two exhaust valves. The one toward the top of the image is not seated flush like the one on the bottom of the image. If one of the exhaust valves is not seating all the way, could that be a broken valve spring? Any other thoughts?

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Broken valve springs are common, so are failed lifters and both can lead to these conditions you have observed. You need to ensure the valve hasn't gotten bent from operation like this. I have a TON of good used 2.5 parts, including heads and etc, if you need them.

When looking at the top of the piston, a telltale sign that the valves have touched the pistons is a small shiny crescent shape, where the valves touch.

While not a Porsche piston this will give an idea what the mark may look like.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7428/1...e72840f2_b.jpg

Jake, thank you so much for your input. I did take a close look at the top of the piston and did not see any marks from the valve.

Is this a project I am foolish to try and tackle while the motor is in the car? The 101Projects says you can (not pretty) change the cams while in the car. Assuming I don't have to replace the valve/head? Is it realistic to think that I can just pull the camshaft cover, camshafts, cam follower housing and have access to the valve hardware? Replace a valve spring or lifter and put it back together?

I am biased, because we do everything out of the car.. I don't like fighting with space constraints and dealing with a debris enriched workspace. I'd much rather pull the engine and do my work in a clean environment. Thats just me.

Fair enough.

I plan on trying this one in the car, I think I have my head wrapped around the entire project. Not around removing the engine yet.

Regarding timing, it looks pretty basic and I'm sure I'm oversimplifying this here but as I see it the two cams shouldn't need addressed, but you just line up the marks on the sprocket with the colored links on the chain. And then timing for the cams with regards to the motor is simply using the tool (P253) to hold the exhaust valve parallel with the edge of the head/cam cover while you tighten down the 4 bolts that hold the sprocket/chain to the exhaust cam, all done while the motor is at TDC for the respective cylinder bank?

?
 

Just curious , I have pulled a 3 series BMW engine....how long does it take to pull one of these engines ?

According to 101Projects about 10 hours. I'm guessing Jake could probably do it in about 30 minutes? :)

Just noticed your location. My dad is in Waynesville. Haven't looked to see how far you are from him. May be out there this summer.

Its not just aligning the marks on a 5 chain engine. You will have cam deviations unless the proper tool and procedure is used. Yes it will run, no it will not run without compromise.

I've ordered the Bentley manual. I suspect timing will be addressed in there? Where is the best place to find the correct timing procedure for this motor?

Waynesville is a couple of hours from me, I went to prom with the mayor's daughter from there years ago... <cause that's relevant! Hah!

Careful, if you stay on this forum much, you will may catch the habit of "well while I'm in here I may as well change the...


As well as the....


Then the....



And that don't look so good...



:rolleyes:

At this point, you know that the engine has some type of serious internal damage consistent with the original diagnosis (FOUND CYLINDER 3 WITH LEAKAGE, INTERNAL ENGINE DAMAGE).

The $64K question is how much damage and how bad is it?

I would suggest that any amount of internal engine damage warrants removal of the engine to start a logical and methodical tear down to find what broke, where ALL of the broken parts went, and if there was any collateral damage. This thinking isn't unique to a Porsche, this is Engine Building 101.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you want to take the time and invest the money to learn how to re-build your engine? Or do you simply want to buy a replacement engine, sell the broken motor to someone else to re-build, and get the car back on the road?

Only you can answer those questions but it appears that the expectation or hope of a quick and easy engine repair may not be reality in this situation.

Not easily useable in a 98 due to many reasons, DME, E-gas, fuel system.

m

+1 -- drop the engine -- then you can much more easily access everything.

m

aneal,
I am a few steps ahead of you in this project(unfortunately)and perhaps may be able to give a few practical hints based on my mistakes.
1. Before removing the engine ,do all the tests you can because it takes a very long time to remove this engine the first time you do it. The reasons are access and unfamiliarity . I am using a full height lift ,have an almost pro selection of tools and equipment some Factory training and it is embarrassingly slow progress. Yes, I have Waynes book and Bentley.
2. Before removing the engine I suggest you find the inspection,repair and reassembly instructions book. That will take a long time because until Jake publishes his M96 book - there isn't one !Sadly ,Bentley is quite inadequate the experts say.And WAyne does not cover it completely.
Fortunately I am in no rush so am patiently waiting for Jake Raby's book "The M96 Definitive Guide". I'll even be a guinea pig and test a galley proof if that would help Jake?
If this was a simple engine the lack of instructions would be just an inconvenience. I'm not trying to discourage you, just a heads-up and a general plea to this Forum for a reference to any helpful information on inspecting and reassembly.Once Jake publishes it will be a simple matter of buying his book but until then....
With the old air cooled engines ,if you made a mistake it was quick & easy to just remove the engine and rectify your error.With the M96 in the Boxster it is a very different issue. Wayne rates removal/tear down as a '4' I think and the reassembly is '10'. I suggest he underestimates the removal time for anyone unfamiliar with the Boxster so I am apprehensive about the rest of the task!
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

Spent the night making a tool and removing the camshaft cover. I'll say right now I know why you guys don't want to do this in the car. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm dang jealous of all the pics I'm seeing online of motors where you can use a standard socket to remove bolts - instead of the slippery end of a box wrench over and over and over. Long story short, I got the tool made and the camshaft cover removed and I'm calling it a night. Next up, removal of the camshafts and carrier to see what's going on with the valve. My biggest concern at this point is getting the camshaft cover back on when there is a small bead of loctite on it... Gonna have to ponder on that one!

Couldn't have done this without all the information I've found online! Thanks again for everyone's input on this!

Tool made and installed. Camshaft cover removed with motor still installed.

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