kit car

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by particlewave

Economy and efficiency are two different things
I'm talking about use of energy and losses from an engineering standpoint, not your wallet.

The cost of tech goes down with time. But you already know that.

The electric hybrid 918 Spyder just blew a .50 caliber hole into the N-ring lap record for a production car (one you can actually drive on the street and not go to jail).

I followed a Tesla Model S on the way to Miami back in Sept. and anyone who thinks electric cars are liberal/political ploy have been listening to too much talk radio. That's 400+ HP of INSTANT rubber-melting kick. I haven't seen a car that big take off from 60mph maybe ever. Eventually that tech will filter down to 'budget' sports cars like the FRS. Given that the average sports car is only driven ocassionally and doesn't really need the significantly higher expense of long range capacity batteries (short range will be more than enough) it will be the perfect platform for instant power off braking/turns.

Also, the Tesla 'Super Charger' can juice a car with a 100+ miles of use in about the time it takes the average drained iphone to hit 20%, 30 minutes. Pull in, eat lunch. done.

[BYprodriver]

I saw a TV show maybe 9 years ago where there was a Carrera GT kit put onto a Boxster. Looked good on TV, but you could see flaws also.
At Rennsport reunion IV in Montery I talked to Beck's son. They had a running 904 replica & said M96 engine was a option.
BBI/IPD is working on a 550 spyder replica with 500+HP potential from a Porsche engine. I realize I'm not directly addressing your OP, but it's closer than most posts here.

Originally Posted by The Radium King

you know, with all the dead boxsters floating around - blown engines, accidented, written-off, water damaged, etc., you would think someone would make a tube chassis that used boxster running gear - suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, etc. it would be light and make a heck of a go-kart regardless of what engine you used. add a fiberglass body and off to the races (literally). cut and paste your vin tags, add some fit-up and you could have a street car.

no idea what body to use, however. most kits are recreations of some sort, and the kits that try to create something new tend to look god-awful or way dated. something that riffed on a dino 246 theme would really work for me. I was thinking of a 904 body (keep it Porsche) Ginetta G12 body (lotus elise with torque) or perhaps a jag xk13 body, but the jury is still out for me.

crazy?

[evomind]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

The cost of tech goes down with time. But you already know that.

The electric hybrid 918 Spyder just blew a .50 caliber hole into the N-ring lap record for a production car (one you can actually drive on the street and not go to jail).

I followed a Tesla Model S on the way to Miami back in Sept. and anyone who thinks electric cars are liberal/political ploy have been listening to too much talk radio. That's 400+ HP of INSTANT rubber-melting kick. I haven't seen a car that big take off from 60mph maybe ever. Eventually that tech will filter down to 'budget' sports cars like the FRS. Given that the average sports car is only driven ocassionally and doesn't really need the significantly higher expense of long range capacity batteries (short range will be more than enough) it will be the perfect platform for instant power off braking/turns.

Also, the Tesla 'Super Charger' can juice a car with a 100+ miles of use in about the time it takes the average drained iphone to hit 20%, 30 minutes. Pull in, eat lunch. done.

Great!! The 918 Spyder is what, 900,000 DOLLARS??? Wow, at that price Ill buy 2!!!
The Tesla is built on a Lotus Elise chassis. I had a brand new Lotus Elise. It cost abt 45k brand new.
The Tesla Roadster is what, 110k??
I think Ill stick with the Lotus, performance figures aren't that different.
Eventually that tech will filter down to budget sportscars like an frs....Yeah, but Im not sure Ill be driving by then.
We already have gas cars that can melt the rubber off powering out of turns.

The range of the Tesla isn't that bad considering, but as it stands right now I have to drive abt 30-40 miles to get to fun roads so then what do I do when I need a charge to get back home?

Im not saying its no good, just that its not ready for prime time yet. The 918 is "hardly" a production car in the typical sense and at over 900k, its a far cry from trickling down to the average joe, or even someone fairly well to do. That's a pipe dream.

We have dumped probably billions in the R and D for this stuff collectively because in 500 years we will run out of oil. Thas why its politically charged. We haven't even begun to drill for our own oil, even though by all accounts we are potentially oil rich. Why? Again, politically charged.

Heck, Ford makes a Fiesta for the European market that gets over 60mpg and the car is as cheap as dirt. Im just pointing out there are other alternatives that don't cost nearly as much. Turbo diesel doesn't have the same political left wing flair as electric though.
If you want high mpg and performance at a relatively low cost, the tech is already there. No need to reinvent the wheel.
But I guess spending what we don't have is also a bi product of those socially-politically charged folks.

Hey man, your money, buy what you want but im just wondering why electric car lovers are still slumming in gas powered (under powered?) Porsches.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I saw a TV show maybe 9 years ago where there was a Carrera GT kit put onto a Boxster. Looked good on TV, but you could see flaws also.
At Rennsport reunion IV in Montery I talked to Beck's son. They had a running 904 replica & said M96 engine was a option.
BBI/IPD is working on a 550 spyder replica with 500+HP potential from a Porsche engine. I realize I'm not directly addressing your OP, but it's closer than most posts here.

Have you seen the chassis of the 550 replica? A lot less than 500hp will twist that chassis up like a pretzel methinks.

[The Radium King]

I think the 904 is probably the easiest, and purest (keeping it all Porsche) project. I don't think the scale on the 550 is right for a boxster, and I've heard about the beck and thunder ranch 904 copies but out of my price range. and really, their offerings are bespoke cars. I'm thinking more custom tube frame, swing over the boxster running gear, then add body. then the details.

the thing about the 904 is that is was all fiberglass straight from porsche, like a factory kit car. so, the fit and finish (the part that kills most amateur car builders) is pretty easy to attain. note the doors/side glass on the 904 - simple. dash - simple. hinges and latches - simple.

well, simple-ish. it would probably die an unfinished project, after nightmare struggles with custom brake lines, properly aligning doors, hours of wet-sanding, etc.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

I think the 904 is probably the easiest, and purest (keeping it all Porsche) project. I don't think the scale on the 550 is right for a boxster, and I've heard about the beck and thunder ranch 904 copies but out of my price range. and really, their offerings are bespoke cars. I'm thinking more custom tube frame, swing over the boxster running gear, then add body. then the details.

the thing about the 904 is that is was all fiberglass straight from porsche, like a factory kit car. so, the fit and finish (the part that kills most amateur car builders) is pretty easy to attain. note the doors/side glass on the 904 - simple. dash - simple. hinges and latches - simple.

well, simple-ish. it would probably die an unfinished project, after nightmare struggles with custom brake lines, properly aligning doors, hours of wet-sanding, etc.

Maybe if it was delivered as a rolling chassis.....
Take a look at what RCR is making. I know they were making a 917 or something kit car. pricey.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by evomind

Great!! The 918 Spyder is what, 900,000 DOLLARS??? Wow, at that price Ill buy 2!!!
The Tesla is built on a Lotus Elise chassis. I had a brand new Lotus Elise. It cost abt 45k brand new.
The Tesla Roadster is what, 110k??
I think Ill stick with the Lotus, performance figures aren't that different.
Eventually that tech will filter down to budget sportscars like an frs....Yeah, but Im not sure Ill be driving by then.
We already have gas cars that can melt the rubber off powering out of turns.
.

Porsche charge you $900K for a 918 Spyder because they can. Much like a Rolex is not really a $6,000 watch but really a watch that can be made for $800 by ETA, a great deal of the tech behind that car is propietary but it won't be long before others (Asia) with less cache can produce similar technology for buyers who demand more value on a cost basis. The Tesla Model S is now price-competitve with virtually every mass produced Porsche and Lexus and (globally) is close to matching Porsche's production numbers for North America in 2009. And this before the Tesla SUV and entry level cars have been offered. When the market is fed up with old way of filling up a car and are presented an alternative they have evidently grabbed it with both hands. And much like Apple plowed the market with the first all touch screen phone six years ago for a lofty price, Xiaomi of China can now offer a phone like the Mi3, with all of the same tech of an iPhone for what used to be the price of a flip phone. The same will happen with high HP hybrid and electric cars. When you're talking about a global market, and no longer just a U.S. market, cost of production plummets at a rate we've not seen before.

Originally Posted by evomind

We have dumped probably billions in the R and D for this stuff collectively because in 500 years we will run out of oil. Thas why its politically charged. We haven't even begun to drill for our own oil, even though by all accounts we are potentially oil rich. Why? Again, politically charged.

.

Dumped? Well that's an interesting way of describing R&D.

Whatever we have spent on R&D for electric engines we will get back 10 fold when you extricate the average consumer from an oil market that is NOT priced on supply and demand. The price action of oil is and will always be priced on the EXPECTATION of demand.

How will we ever know how much oil we need vs. how much oil is left? The only way the expectation of demand can go down, enough to actually lower/sustain the prices bidders are willing to pay, particularly those subsidized by central govts like China that 'artificially' raise those bids, is if those unknowns, of future demand vs. future supply, become certainties. And that's impossible because there isn't a single market for commodities, equities or any other, that is static. And more importantly, the way oil is and will always be traded favors drastic fluctuations in price action and higher and higher prices. Those wild swings create an unending paranoia amongst bidders so that they feel they will always need to bid at escalating levels to secure their share of production. These bidders are not going to back off because some biased market research assure us that there is plenty more oil and peak oil just a myth. They look at production from the largest producers in OPEC who can no longer hide the fact that their levels are falling. The global bidders of oil have looked at the broader market and are convinced that any new oil production in best case scenarios (like a huge spike in U.S. production) will not keep pace with the hundreds of millions of new oil consumers in emerging markets using very inefficient and cheap engines. Basically the bidders firmly believe that tens of millions of new motorists outside of America will devour whatever we can produce domestically. And you can't argue with the market. Which is an oil speculators and broker's dream come true. Who in their right mind wants to rely on a market like that? Who wants to run a business when a 20% spike in price volatility in a single month (putting you at a net loss instantly) is entirely possible and likely? That's the equivalent of buying a house with a variable rate when everyone and their sister is telling you that rates are about to explode.

[The French Dude]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Much like a Rolex is not really a $6,000 watch but really a watch that can be made for $800 by ETA

Rolex is still a manufacture not ETA

[evomind]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Porsche charge you $900K for a 918 Spyder because they can. Much like a Rolex is not really a $6,000 watch but really a watch that can be made for $800 by ETA, a great deal of the tech behind that car is propietary but it won't be long before others (Asia) with less cache can produce similar technology for buyers who demand more value on a cost basis. The Tesla Model S is now price-competitve with virtually every mass produced Porsche and Lexus and (globally) is close to matching Porsche's production numbers for North America in 2009. And this before the Tesla SUV and entry level cars have been offered. When the market is fed up with old way of filling up a car and are presented an alternative they have evidently grabbed it with both hands. And much like Apple plowed the market with the first all touch screen phone six years ago for a lofty price, Xiaomi of China can now offer a phone like the Mi3, with all of the same tech of an iPhone for what used to be the price of a flip phone. The same will happen with high HP hybrid and electric cars. When you're talking about a global market, and no longer just a U.S. market, cost of production plummets at a rate we've not seen before.





Dumped? Well that's an interesting way of describing R&D.

Whatever we have spent on R&D for electric engines we will get back 10 fold when you extricate the average consumer from an oil market that is NOT priced on supply and demand. The price action of oil is and will always be priced on the EXPECTATION of demand.

How will we ever know how much oil we need vs. how much oil is left? The only way the expectation of demand can go down, enough to actually lower/sustain the prices bidders are willing to pay, particularly those subsidized by central govts like China that 'artificially' raise those bids, is if those unknowns, of future demand vs. future supply, become certainties. And that's impossible because there isn't a single market for commodities, equities or any other, that is static. And more importantly, the way oil is and will always be traded favors drastic fluctuations in price action and higher and higher prices. Those wild swings create an unending paranoia amongst bidders so that they feel they will always need to bid at escalating levels to secure their share of production. These bidders are not going to back off because some biased market research assure us that there is plenty more oil and peak oil just a myth. They look at production from the largest producers in OPEC who can no longer hide the fact that their levels are falling. The global bidders of oil have looked at the broader market and are convinced that any new oil production in best case scenarios (like a huge spike in U.S. production) will not keep pace with the hundreds of millions of new oil consumers in emerging markets using very inefficient and cheap engines. Basically the bidders firmly believe that tens of millions of new motorists outside of America will devour whatever we can produce domestically. And you can't argue with the market. Which is an oil speculators and broker's dream come true. Who in their right mind wants to rely on a market like that? Who wants to run a business when a 20% spike in price volatility in a single month (putting you at a net loss instantly) is entirely possible and likely? That's the equivalent of buying a house with a variable rate when everyone and their sister is telling you that rates are about to explode.

Well that's quite verbose.
Keep it pithy!!

You addressed basically what you wanted and left what you didn't want to touch alone.
Hey, Im all for progress but not for reinventing the wheel just to spite the wheel.
Im just pointing out that if we want high mpg/high performance, there are other options that are much further along. That's my main point and one no one has disputed here so far.
It feels good to say were going electric just to stick it up OPEC's arse, and Im just saying the tech isn't quite there yet, and the billions we have spent, subsidized, and granted to R and D may have been better spent elsewhere. That's subjective, I know.
What isn't subjective is the fact we probably have more oil than almost anyone, especially considering our shale extraction or whatever that is less invasive than traditional drilling. We choose not to pursue many avenues based strictly on political/social view points. Fact. There is NO shortage, only oil companies and the politicians in their pockets telling you so to justify exorbitant costs.
Look, if you love electric cars as they stand today, go buy one. God bless if you can get a 918. Btw, Porsche can charge 900k because there are no other options, not because they are Porsche. Rolex has competitors that make pricey, high quality watches. There are other brands to choose from that tell time and impress with label.
Again, I like progress, I think one day soon electric MAY be a great choice for the average consumer, but it just isn't ready yet and what bothers me is there are companies that will be happy to take your money anyway just so you can "feel good."

[The Radium King]

no disrespect, but try starting your own thread for this (and perhaps delete your posts here).

[evomind]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

no disrespect, but try starting your own thread for this (and perhaps delete your posts here).

No disrespect?
I didn't bring up the electric option in a kit car, merely commented on others who did.
The OP wanted a cost effective choice for a kit car, not a 400k dollar kit car.
No disrespect but please mind your own posts but if you are going to be a thread cop then address everyone involved rather than singling 1 guy out.
btw, maybe you should delete YOUR posts here, no disrespect of course.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by The French Dude

Rolex is still a manufacture not ETA

You are correct. You also know the point I was getting at!

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by evomind

Have you seen the chassis of the 550 replica? A lot less than 500hp will twist that chassis up like a pretzel methinks.

No haven't seen anything other than the shop @ BBI/IPD & talking to a guy there.
The current Excellence mag has a article on the chassis/engine tuning BBI did for Jeff Zwart's GT3.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

No haven't seen anything other than the shop @ BBI/IPD & talking to a guy there.
The current Excellence mag has a article on the chassis/engine tuning BBI did for Jeff Zwart's GT3.

Ya know, Beck makes a very nice replica, if you want brand new its delivered as a rolling chassis but nice, used examples well sorted can be had for less than 30k.

Not sure what they want for this one, but take a look if youre not familiar with the kits.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replica-Kit-Makes-Other-PORSCHE-550-RE-CREATION-1956-porsche-550-spyder-re-creation-only-150-miles-/291017694151?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43c2019bc7&item=291017694151&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

I think the 904 is probably the easiest, and purest (keeping it all Porsche) project. I don't think the scale on the 550 is right for a boxster, and I've heard about the beck and thunder ranch 904 copies but out of my price range. and really, their offerings are bespoke cars. I'm thinking more custom tube frame, swing over the boxster running gear, then add body. then the details.

the thing about the 904 is that is was all fiberglass straight from porsche, like a factory kit car. so, the fit and finish (the part that kills most amateur car builders) is pretty easy to attain. note the doors/side glass on the 904 - simple. dash - simple. hinges and latches - simple.

well, simple-ish. it would probably die an unfinished project, after nightmare struggles with custom brake lines, properly aligning doors, hours of wet-sanding, etc.

I think I know what you are saying. Probably the most successful manufacturer is "Factoryfive racing" They make a 65-67 Cobra kit car designed to bolton 87-93 Mustang powertrain & suspension components. This is so popular they now make about 10 different kits mostly Ford based.
I worked for Shelby American 2+ years on the Shelby Series 1 project. This project had the full cooperation of GM & most of thier parts vendors, but after 4 years, still failed to meet my fit & finish expectations for a $150K sportcar.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I think I know what you are saying. Probably the most successful manufacturer is "Factoryfive racing"

Hey Bill, speaking about Factory Five, have you seen their new mid engine design that uses a Subaru engine?

There is an article on Grassroots magazine and also a F5 ad that offers two kits, one for 9k (street version) and 10k for the track version...

The concept looks great (if you can ignore the S2000 look alike face..) but a well designed track toy for 10k plus a Subbie donor car sounds great IMHO

Regards, Gilles

.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I think I know what you are saying. Probably the most successful manufacturer is "Factoryfive racing" They make a 65-67 Cobra kit car designed to bolton 87-93 Mustang powertrain & suspension components. This is so popular they now make about 10 different kits mostly Ford based.
I worked for Shelby American 2+ years on the Shelby Series 1 project. This project had the full cooperation of GM & most of thier parts vendors, but after 4 years, still failed to meet my fit & finish expectations for a $150K sportcar.

Id pay the upcharge and buy Superformance.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by evomind

Id pay the upcharge and buy Superformance.

I'd invoke my employee discount + a upcharge & buy the Shelby kit!

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by Gilles

Hey Bill, speaking about Factory Five, have you seen their new mid engine design that uses a Subaru engine?

There is an article on Grassroots magazine and also a F5 ad that offers two kits, one for 9k (street version) and 10k for the track version...

The concept looks great (if you can ignore the S2000 look alike face..) but a well designed track toy for 10k plus a Subbie donor car sounds great IMHO

Regards, Gilles

.

Yeah, I've seen it but I like cars I can drive anytime & anywhere. I like driving the WRXs,but Subaru engines are far from the top of my list for transplants.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I'd invoke my employee discount + a upcharge & buy the Shelby kit!

The Shelby kit isn't necessarily an upgrade.
I have experience with both. The Shelby kits are more expensive and a total biatch to work with as compared to the SPF.
Honestly I give a slight nod to SPF however subjective that may be as I think the total quality is slightly better. Not much. That and the fact the Shelby kit is harder to install the exhaust. A lot harder.
That said I wouldn't argue with either one.
I had an SPF GT-40 that I put the motor and trans in myself, I loved that car. Before settling on the GT-40 I looked real hard at Shelby and the SPF Cobra.
All top notch cars