Not to beat a dead Porsche horse, but reliability...

[Dlirium]

Originally Posted by Boxster101

If you want above average reliability, lots of fun driving, and a bargain, buy a Boxster.
If you are totally focused on reliability, buy a f*#$*ing Toyota already!!

Exactly. Besides my 2000 Boxster S that gets regular track and AX time, I also have a 2007 BMW Z4 M coupe. Fun car, but the issue with those is early rod bearing failure. We have our IMS issues. Also had my water pump pulley shaft break. Only indication that there is a problem is the battery light comes on. Once it does, you are about 2 minutes away from a warped head and new engine. It's sad that these kinds of cars seem to be plagued...

[always porsche]

My last five motors have all been porsches, three 944's a 1976 930 Turbo (Flat Nose conversion) and presently my 2001 Box, all extremely reliable and even more enjoyable.
Look after your porker and it will be good to you !!

[Topless]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

I'm surprised, my '89 'Yota has been great, IIRC I still have the original rotors, manual trans. , and original ball joints, with 190,000 Miles. I guess I should do the ball joints soon though with 37" tires .....

My 89 4Run never had ball joint issues but several 96-02 Tacomas have. The 4Run did develop a common cracked manifold and would slip out of 3rd gear under heavy load but she was a workhorse that logged 260K miles without ever burning oil or overheating.

[rondocap]

Actually - post 2006 Porsches do seem to be more reliable, IMS issues being more resolved and other things of that nature.

You guys are right - Porsches are not typical cars, and thus cannot really be compared very well.

One thing remains objectively though; the IMS issue, as rare as it may or may not be, is definitely a deal killer for me when considering pre-2006 Porsches.

[coreseller]

I've alluded to my cousin here before, he has a 1999 base Box and has not had an issue with it since buying it one year old, drives it quite a bit too. Doesn't know what an IMS is and could not care less, I frankly envy him, he has the right attitude.

Think about all of the preventative dollars spent on cars or the proactive repairs performed as part of a "While I'm in there" project was done. Not knocking it, probably a lot of catastrophes avoided and I'm guilty of doing said "repairs" myself. I just can't help to wonder how much more some people would enjoy their P-Cars if they didn't browse these forums and start to worry as a result.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by rondocap

Actually - post 2006 Porsches do seem to be more reliable, IMS issues being more resolved and other things of that nature.

You guys are right - Porsches are not typical cars, and thus cannot really be compared very well.

One thing remains objectively though; the IMS issue, as rare as it may or may not be, is definitely a deal killer for me when considering pre-2006 Porsches.

I would be doing quiet the opposite in your shoes. 97-99 Have very low likelyhood and if you are a worrying type you can have the factory IMS replaced easily in a day.

For the most part, 2000-2004 are most likely to have an issue **BUT** you can also easily have it replaced in a day without splitting open the engine. The issue becomes moot for less than I spent on my last waterpump/rotor job.

2005 You have to take down the transmission to verify if its single row or the not-serviceable bearing. Which means you'll be crossing your fingers until its time to change the clutch, no sense doing all the work just to verify and not replace the clutch.

2006-2008 have two kinds of bearings. The free one from the factory or the $7,000 - $10,000 kind that you'll get once you split open the engine. These revised bearings have been much, much better but a sealed bearing will still need to be replaced, especially one that did not have proper care/oil changes. So once that free bearing has run its course get out the piggy bank.

If I'm buying today I go either 2000-2004 3.2 or save my money until the DFI engine cars come down from post-warranty depreciation.
Realistically, you only need to replace the IMS bearing once even if you don't replace it with a fancy one. Other's can chime in but I've yet to hear of someone who dumped the factory bearing and still had an issue on bearing #2.

[jcb986]

My 2000 S with a 3.2 liter and has 75,000 miles on it. The only part failure has been the AOS and and axle seal at the differential. Gas, tires, brakes, oil changes...typical maintenance which I do myself. Car is 13 years old, wholesale is $9,000, retail $14,000 to $17,000 in good times. The 3.2 engine is stronger and better built than the 2.5 and 2.7 in my opinion. Also mine is a Tip, not stick. Seems most failures have been mostly stick cars. By it right and drive it.

Forte note: I have a Gravely mower and it had a 10.5 hp engine that lasted 3 years and threw a rod. I replaced it with a 13.5 hp engine. Big difference, the old engine struggled, the new engine has no problems at handling its job. Wonder how many did fail do to being stressed out doing its job that it was not designed to do. Hum.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by coreseller

I've alluded to my cousin here before, he has a 1999 base Box and has not had an issue with it since buying it one year old, drives it quite a bit too. Doesn't know what an IMS is and could not care less, I frankly envy him, he has the right attitude.

Think about all of the preventative dollars spent on cars or the proactive repairs performed as part of a "While I'm in there" project was done. Not knocking it, probably a lot of catastrophes avoided and I'm guilty of doing said "repairs" myself. I just can't help to wonder how much more some people would enjoy their P-Cars if they didn't browse these forums and start to worry as a result.

I can't disagree with you, and I have worried here or there and been mislead but in general I think a lot of folks are like me, they totally love doing a projects for the heck of it. I bought mine to drive and take apart and put back together. It cost a lot but was worth every dime. Sounds like you might have done the same.

Clearly there are threads that do spread fear. Possibly it was correct when it comes to single row IMS but certainly not double row. And replacing water pumps every 3 years with as little miles as these cars drive, seem overkill. Heck I know I was more concerned the water pump I put in might not be as good as the one I took out, but I sure enjoyed doing it.

I think this is a good subject. It's too bad there isn't enough statistical data out there to compare true reliability to what is posted on this forum. Threads like this are the only time we hear folks say "Huh, mine has been bullet proof". Clearly many folks join the forum because they had a problem, but others like me joined to be part of the community and learn.

Back on topic...if one follows the forums a lot there are certainly several areas of issues, are they more then the industry norm for that period...I donno. If so then to the original posters question, yes reliability would be a concern. I will say sometimes I see members post problem after problem, and the talk of how much money to set aside for planned problems and then wonder did I just get lucky and get a great car or on average do most folks have more problems than I did. From watching the forums it sure does seem to be the roll of the dice. I think repair costs then comes into play, someone might say, well if I get a bad one it will cost a fortune to fix.

[bglz42]

I just can't help to wonder how much more some people would enjoy their P-Cars if they didn't browse these forums and start to worry as a result.

BINGO!

In every auto forum, there exists an "IMS" that keeps owners awake at night ... in the 12v Cummins it is the KDP, (Killer Dowel Pin). In the 24v, it is the dreaded "6" block. Beemers have main bearing issues, ad nauseum...

Ran into an old friend who owns a 99 996. Another "What is IMS?" guy... never heard of it...

I choose to see it as a rare non-issue. I will maintain it and drive it and enjoy it. I do not think there is a better built vehicle on the road...

Cheers, Jim

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

Clearly there are threads that do spread fear. Possibly it was correct when it comes to single row IMS but certainly not double row. And replacing water pumps every 3 years with as little miles as these cars drive.

Owners who let a dual row car sit for long periods, registering little mileage while infrequently chaging the oil would be mistaken in brushing off the IMS issue because they have two rows. Give a dual row bearing enough time and it will catch up to a single row on failure.


As far as the waterpump, I think its more an issue of mileage.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Owners who let a dual row car sit for long periods, registering little mileage while infrequently chaging the oil would be mistaken in brushing off the IMS issue because they have two rows. Give a dual row bearing enough time and it will catch up to a single row on failure.


As far as the waterpump, I think its more an issue of mileage.

I don't think there is data to prove this. The previous owner of my car changed the oil every 12 to 15k miles and sometimes the car sat for years without driving it. My double row was fine. Even the class action filed shows double rows to be much less of an issue. Who knows, these are just my thoughts .

[evo-r]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Owners who let a dual row car sit for long periods, registering little mileage while infrequently chaging the oil would be mistaken in brushing off the IMS issue because they have two rows. Give a dual row bearing enough time and it will catch up to a single row on failure.


As far as the waterpump, I think its more an issue of mileage.

Off topic, at what mileage should one replace their water pump?

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

I don't think there is data to prove this. The previous owner of my car changed the oil every 12 to 15k miles and sometimes the car sat for years without driving it. My double row was fine. Even the class action filed shows double rows to be much less of an issue. Who knows, these are just my thoughts .

certainly no data but look at the causes of single row failures... a dual row's fortification does not eliminate these, they simply better endure.

Which means a dual row bearing is simply afforded more time to replace it. The timing of the lawsuit has come when most Boxsters are only now creeping over 100K miles. Those dual row cars that have been neglected and are still on their factory bearing will start to fail with far greater frequency over the second 100K miles. So Porsche's timing in settling this matter could not have been better.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by evo-r

Off topic, at what mileage should one replace their water pump?

I believe Flat6 have posted that it should be done every 50K miles. Or maybe that was Wayne Dempsey in "101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster". Mine lasted 80K miles. But I think the logic is to replace it while its still in its 'sweet spot' and not on the downslope. Seems like airline maintenance logic -- hence why flying is by far the safest mode of travel.

[johnsimion]

If little things went wrong but the engine was bulletproof, that would be infinitely preferable to the present situation in which the little things work great but the engine might blow up and cost $15k to repair. Couple this with a manufacturer that doesn't give a F about its customers and I'll never, ever buy another.

[southernstar]

johnsimion, if the IMS worries you that much and you are unwilling to pay for an upgrade, then sell your car. Of course, if you want to replace it with a legitimate sports car such a BMW Z4, you will find that there are significant issues lurking in those cars as well: the rod bearings, already referred to, and the electric steering pumps that fail regularly and cost about $3000.00 to repair, etc.

Frankly, I consider the reliabillity of the 986 to be terrific considering its age and typical use: take virtually any car that is now between 10 and 17 years old and consistently drive it within an inch of its life and see what happens! Yes, the single row IMS bearing was a huge mistake - but, and it is a significant but, there are fixes and, in the case of the initial single-row bearings or dual-row bearings, ones that are not terribly expensive.

What other car for anywhere near the current price of a 986 can deliver comparable steering, handling, braking, acceleration, sound, ergonomics, appearance and yes - class? Considering the age, for those who don't live in Arizona or California, what other sports car is as resistant to rust? This is not an insignificant feature as rust is not only unsightly, it weakens the structure and costs an absolute fortune to repair properly- if it is worth repairing at all.

Consider the much maligned interior quality in the 986: in spite of their age and the fact that they are often exposed to direct sunlight with the top down, the interiors have actually held up very well - for example, how many 986's have you seen with a cracked dashboard? One has to compare apples with apples and it is unfair to compare any convertible to a hardtop in terms of interior durability.

Consider the brakes - in spite of much harder use than the average sedan, the monoblock 4 piston calipers are extremely durable and do not require replacement with most brake jobs.

Consider the exhaust - how many 10 to 17 year old 986's still have their original exhaust system?

Consider the cooling system - a mid-engine, water-cooled engine will always be much more difficult to engineer and to maintain and the one in the 986 is more efficient and reliable than in virtually any other mid-engine car. When properly maintained, air locks are extremely unusual - and compare that to various Ferraris, Lambos, Maseratis and Fiat X-19's, etc.

Is the ignition switch an issue? Absolutely, but the part costs about $35.00 and it requires about 1.5 hours of difficult, but not expert labour to replace.

Are some of the plastic parts an issue over time? Yes, but is anyone really surprised that a plastic coolant expansion tank or A/OS may be deteriorated after a large number of years, considering the continual heating and cooling and pressure that they have been exposed to? If you are, you may wish to check out BMW or even more mundane brands.

Consider the intended use of the vehicle. In order to obtain the incredible balance of handling and performance while providing decent comfort and ergonomics, wieght had to be kept to a minimum. Porsche used magnesium top bows, aluminum suspension components and various other means to keep the weight to a reasonable level. However, designing and building a car where weight reduction is a priority can lead to parts that are, at times, less durable than their heavier equivalents on more mundane transportation. Just ask the owner of any Lotus, if you have any doubts about that. Again, as perfectlap has pointed out, we have to compare apples with apples and it is unfair to compare the durability of a Porsche with that of a Toyota Camry.

In terms of a car's expected life-span, the 986 Boxster is now a late middle-aged (or older) car that is still capable of providing virtually state of the art performance. In spite of its age, it is still not only capable of, but happy to be driven very hard and it does so with only occasional protest. IMO, the 986 is akin to an incredible athelete who can still 'bring it' in spite of being in their late 30's or beyond. Sure, at that advanced age such athletes typically spend more time on the disabled list than their younger (or much younger) competitors. But the amazing thing is that they are still able to compete at all!

Brad

[kk2002s]

It seems these cars (I'm sure many higher priced sports cars) do lead an un-typical car lifestyle. Drive time is limited. My car seems to have followed a typical pattern of 4-5k mile per year from it's previous owners. So age and non-use plays heavily into it's reliability. I have driven it 10-11k a year and the more I drive it, the longer the trips the better the car runs.
Some things I want to replace are preventative, water-pump, thermostat.
Other items I need to repair, front suspension, appear to be suffering due to age not miles or use. Mid 60k miles and several boots have cracked and it's a matter of time and grit intrusion before the handling suffers

I suspect that if these cars were driven more traditionally (10 - 15k miles/year) their reliability perception would go up, IMS failure % may go down.
So I replace, water pump, front suspension, etc at 65k miles thats terrible - How Unreliable
BUT replacing at 12 years old now that's not bad at all - That's pretty reliable

My car does protest when I don't drive it regularly

[Eric G]

When I bought my Boxster it was a purchase of passion. I had and still do love the design and performance of this car. At the time (mine is a 1998 that had 89K on the clock) and it still appeared to run solid...however, I do have a brain and have the ability to analyze a situation. Anyone who purchases a used car (no matter how few or many miles) must fully anticipate that the previous owner(s) have at some point had not cared for the car and that parts in the car can and will fail regardless of how they were cared for.

In short, I came into my deal knowing whether it was a Porsche, BMW, Ferrari or whatever I purchased, it was going to need work and that requires cash. I think anyone who is purchasing a used sports car and has zero budget for doing any work is foolish and foolhardy. Something will inevitably break. As such, I had fully planed before the purchase to go through the car and return it to a "like new" condition so I could have full confidence that no matter where I drove it...it will get me there and back. Why? Remember my statement above...I love this car.

Over the course of four months I replaced everything I could get my hands on which amounted to purchasing double the value I paid for the car in parts alone (as I did the work myself)...and guess what? I know have a car that runs like new and provides the type of ride and performance that I fully expect this car to give me. If you have no mechanical skills and expect to drive one of these cars, you my friend are trapped to shop rate labor charges and it is going to cost you to get it fixed.

During this process of rebuilding my Boxster, I found some parts that were slightly worn, others on the brink of failure. Giving this, should I therefore determine that the car is a piece of junk and should be scraped or deride the entire line of Porsche vehicles? No. This is the nature of performance based vehicles. Most people want to believe that they are Sunday go to meeting never fail types of vehicles. They are not. The dollars you are paying for these cars is the performance they are giving you and the engineering that goes in behind that. Is the IMS an issues...yes; did Porsche handle the situation correctly...no; is hind sight 20/20...absolutely. But remember, you have two choices: You either drive the car of your passion or not. Porsche is not the only performance car ever made that has issues, nor will it be the last manufacturer to ever have issues. It is the nature of the game.

Life is to short to drive cheap cars, drink cheap wine and spend your time pissed about things that ad no value to living.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by kk2002s

I suspect that if these cars were driven more traditionally (10 - 15k miles/year) their reliability perception would go up, IMS failure % may go down.
So I replace, water pump, front suspension, etc at 65k miles thats terrible - How Unreliable
BUT replacing at 12 years old now that's not bad at all - That's pretty reliable

My car does protest when I don't drive it regularly

not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek but 65K miles from a suspension on a low-sitting sports car is not bad. Especially if its been subjected to low profile tires and heavy aftermarket wheels over urban roads.

The water pump issue seems to me, and this purely anecdotal, to be an issue of a Porsche component that has little margin of error for any air in the system. The coolant cap is a weak spot and I often wonder if all those who had multiple water pump failures kept up with the updated caps or simply changed them every couple of years to ensure a tight seal. I doubt it. Then you have the coolant tanks that are a second weak spot that are prone to cracking. My point being that the waterpump has to be addressed as part of a group/eco system of items and not just one thing alone. I don't think this is the standard procedure for most owners when it probably should be.

[RawleyD]

Even if my car were to burn up tomorrow due to IMS/atomic detonation , the $10k I have invested in it was worth it. Every cent..