Another RMS

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by wild1poet2

My dealer called me today(about my missing floor mats) and we discussed the RMS issue. This was the sales manager and he subtly downplayed the problem; basically reassuring me that the warranty covers that and furthermore "Porsche is usually good about covering problems out of warranty if they shouldn't be occurring".

Hopefully this is sincere. (query: is implied warranty of merchantability applicable)

Hi,

So much Salesman Babble - only Credible when you have the problem and Porsche Steps Up.

There is indeed a case for Implied Warranty of Mecantibility, but by the time you try to litigate this, you've doubled the cost of the Fix with no Guarantee of Winning. This would discourage most people, which is what the Risk Management Boys in Stuttgart and Atlanta are counting on...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Brucelee]

As they always say,

"get it in writing!"

[Ronzi]

70Sixer wrote:
"We old guys went thru this with with the notorious chain tensioners that failed with disasterous consequences if you were at high rpm. Can't remember when Porsche finally fixed the problem with additional lubrication, but seems like in the 80s"

The tensioner problem was resolved with the oil-fed design commonly called the "Carrera tensioner", introduced on the '84 models.
It only took Porsche 19 years to fix that one. Hopefully the RMS issue will ultimately be dealt with a little more expeditiously.

[MikenOH]

I'm no mechanical engineer but looking at how Porsche has picked at the edges of this problem for the better part of 7-8 years, if it was an easy fix, they'd have done it by now.

--If it was an installation problem, you retrain hans & franz or replace them, but we continue to have leaks; the installation tool has changed also,BTW.


-- If it was a seal material/ design problem you make the necessary changes and you're done; Porsche has been through several design changes IIRC and we still have leaks

--Epoxied bolts have been tried to increase rigidity of the cradle structure, yet we continue to have new cars with leaks.

As i see it, they've done all that they can do, short of a major design change on the engine to either eliminate or reduce the incidence of RMS. On the 987 they reduced the crank weight a bit at the unsupported end to help lessen the "forces"? working on the seal. But in one of the publications testing the new 987S last year, the car was leaking with less than 5K miles on it.

I would think major design changes to this engine to fix the problem would cost a lot in engineering and probably tooling. it's probably less expensive to deal with the individual leaks as they arise and hope the customers aren't too persistent.

One question I haven't heard anyone address is:
if this leak is a symptom of the crank not being ( or staying) concentric with the block, does this indicate an eventual catastrophic failure because of this imbalance? I ask since Porsche does replace some engines after mutilple RMS failures or if it excedes a particular concentric tolerance. If there was no chance of engine failure, why not keep replacing seals? @ $10K a pop for a new engine, you could buy& install a lot of replacement seals.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by MikenOH

I'm no mechanical engineer but looking at how Porsche has picked at the edges of this problem for the better part of 7-8 years, if it was an easy fix, they'd have done it by now.

--If it was an installation problem, you retrain hans & franz or replace them, but we continue to have leaks; the installation tool has changed also,BTW.


-- If it was a seal material/ design problem you make the necessary changes and you're done; Porsche has been through several design changes IIRC and we still have leaks

--Epoxied bolts have been tried to increase rigidity of the cradle structure, yet we continue to have new cars with leaks.

As i see it, they've done all that they can do, short of a major design change on the engine to either eliminate or reduce the incidence of RMS. On the 987 they reduced the crank weight a bit at the unsupported end to help lessen the "forces"? working on the seal. But in one of the publications testing the new 987S last year, the car was leaking with less than 5K miles on it.

I would think major design changes to this engine to fix the problem would cost a lot in engineering and probably tooling. it's probably less expensive to deal with the individual leaks as they arise and hope the customers aren't too persistent.

One question I haven't heard anyone address is:
if this leak is a symptom of the crank not being ( or staying) concentric with the block, does this indicate an eventual catastrophic failure because of this imbalance? I ask since Porsche does replace some engines after mutilple RMS failures or if it excedes a particular concentric tolerance. If there was no chance of engine failure, why not keep replacing seals? @ $10K a pop for a new engine, you could buy& install a lot of replacement seals.

[RANT MODE ON]

Hi,

No offense, but that's the Best Job of Whitewashing the issue I have heard to date!

Poor Little Porsche has tried everything and it can't be fixed...

So the Onus and Financial Burden must be bourne by those who misplaced their Trust and Confidence in Porsche?

Perhaps if Porsche did actually accept some responsibility, this would ease the impact of the problem somewhat, but they are not and have not!

Those who have received some Dealer/Manufacturer support received it only after shouting themselves Blue in the Face. And this, for the most part, only for those Original Owners and then with the Car still under Warranty. GOD HELP the Used Car Buyer, because Porsche will not!

Shame on Porsche for not stepping up and FIXING the problem or coming to the Aid of those affected without the requisite Hystronics by the Owner. But, afterall, it's their Nature - they are simply acting like the Multi-National Corporation that they are.

A much greater shame belongs to those Consumers who minimize or downplay the issue. Have we learned Nothing from the Age of Consumerism? We should be shouting this from the Rooftops! Taking every opportunity to cast this Issue and Porsche in a Negative Light! This problem is not Miniscule - It does destroy Engines! But, also people's Confidence, Ownership Experiences, and also their Dreams!

We should take every opportunity to criticize Porsche not only for the poor design, but also their Corporate Practices! Owners should write Dealers, the NHTSA, the Federal Trade Commission, Auto Mags and Reviews, Internet Forums, hell, even the World Court if necessary!

Only if our collective voice is LOUD enough will there ever be a permanent solution to the problem! As this too is the Nature of Multi-National Corporations!...

[RANT MODE OFF]

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[MikenOH]

I'm not attempting to whitewash or minimize anything; I was just trying to recount the reported fixes that have been attempted--largely to no avail--and take a stab at what the real fix would entail.

Am I saying that Porsche should not be held accountable for defective products?--NO WAY, and I didn't infer it! I am saying this isn't an easy fix--or they would have already done it and it will probably take a new engine design to get rid of the problem.

So then the question becomes, what should Porsche do for the people that have bought their product and been adversely affected by this bad design?
I would think a extended warranty on the engine--10 yr/100K(?)--would be a good faith offer of trying to do the right thing. If there really isn't a RMS problem, it won't cost them anything; if there is a problem, they will retain customer loyalty for making sure the customer doesn't pay for Porsche's mistakes. The bottom line should be to make the customer whole if there is a failing with the product, especially since they've get the production lines running while attempting to fix it.
Makes me think of the 986 sleeved engine issue, but I digress..

Anyway, there is plenty of precedent for an extended warranty for engine problems; MB and BMW both had engines problems with some of their models and offered extended warranties to address customer concerns. It's not a perfect fix--there never is--but it would give an owner some breathing room if he wants to keep the car for 10 years or to sell it with a warranty in the same period.

Are we done here?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by MikenOH

I'm not attempting to whitewash or minimize anything; I was just trying to recount the reported fixes that have been attempted--largely to no avail--and take a stab at what the real fix would entail.

Am I saying that Porsche should not be held accountable for defective products?--NO WAY, and I didn't infer it! I am saying this isn't an easy fix--or they would have already done it and it will probably take a new engine design to get rid of the problem.

So then the question becomes, what should Porsche do for the people that have bought their product and been adversely affected by this bad design?
I would think a extended warranty on the engine--10 yr/100K(?)--would be a good faith offer of trying to do the right thing. If there really isn't a RMS problem, it won't cost them anything; if there is a problem, they will retain customer loyalty for making sure the customer doesn't pay for Porsche's mistakes. The bottom line should be to make the customer whole if there is a failing with the product, especially since they've get the production lines running while attempting to fix it.
Makes me think of the 986 sleeved engine issue, but I digress..

Anyway, there is plenty of precedent for an extended warranty for engine problems; MB and BMW both had engines problems with some of their models and offered extended warranties to address customer concerns. It's not a perfect fix--there never is--but it would give an owner some breathing room if he wants to keep the car for 10 years or to sell it with a warranty in the same period.

Are we done here?

Mike,

I agree with you and wasn't taking a PotShot at you at all. There is just a disgusting lack of OUTRAGE from most quarters on this issue.

Porsche is supposed to be one of THE Car Manufacturers, but couldn't prove it with this fiasco. As I've said (AD NAUSEUM to some I know...) Even KIA got this Part right.

Extended Warranty would certainly help. Paying for the Repair would as well. But, good as your suggestions are, they seem to be falling short of the Ears in the Boardroom in Stuttgart, at least currently.

Earlier someone remarked about the Reliability of Lotus (which I also own) and I agree that it is sub Par, but everyone knows this and believes that the Performance outweighs the severity of it - it is NOT one of the reasons you Buy one. But, to their Credit, Lotus does not abandon their Customers, even those buy Used. When Former President and CEO of LotusUSA (Arne Johnson) stops by your house when in town for a Family Wedding to help with a problem you're having, that's Service! (We fixed it too..!!) But Porsche is supposed to have a reputation for reliability and responding to Customer needs, it IS one of the reasons you Buy one... is this a thing of the Past?

So, Mike, you have proposed a fair and equitable solution... How do we get the Message to Porshe..?? Until we do, the issues remain... PEACE!!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99