Another RMS

[Brucelee]

The proper legal route would force them to cough up the data.

That would be illuminating.

[BoxsterSbob]

agreed!

legal recourse-there is no substitute!


04S
bob

[gRed04]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I hear what you're saying... and Thank You for Your Support...

The problem is that you're trying to keep a Lid on a Dirty, Little, Secret that is already Out-of-the-Bag. It's appeared in National Print Mags numerous times and will continue to do so.

You may find some Sucker who hasn't heard of it (so much for Seller Integrity), but in truth, you're much more likely to come across potential Buyers who've done their Homework, such as the Many Prospects who chime in here from time-to-time, not to mention that those performing PPIs will be on the lookout for it as well..

That being the case, wouldn't you be in a Better position if Porsche were urged, through LOUD vocal support of current Owners and Dealers, to come up with a Fix, Extended Warranty, or the like which you could transfer to the New Owner? I suspect you would...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Hi Jim,

Wasn't trying to imply that I would try to sell a vehicle with a defect to another owner. Just that I intend to sell a proper working vehicle, with 1-2 yrs warranty left, to someone who MAY ( or will at some point depending on the source ) need to deal with a RMS leak and possible engine replacement.

It is a shame that the next owner who will pay 20k+ might have to pop for a 11k motor if not under warranty. I don't see how extending a maker warranty a year or so can help alleviate the worry about the possibility of a 50% of the vehicle charge for a known and common defect. To make me feel comfortable purchasing this vehicle used they would have to extend the warranty covering this issue for a long time ( 10yrs ).

Porsche is missing the boat here. I consider myself ( like most others here ) to be their ideal customer. I bought this car new. Was very excited about the Cayman. Have the resources to buy another or move up to a 911 if I'm happy with this one.

However after now fully understanding the problem I can't see that happening. When paying a premium you expect that the maker will be concerned with their product and their customers happiness.

I cannot thoroughly enjoy the vehicle because I'm always thinking in the back of my mind that I hope I won't have a RMS issue. Need to drive this a little conservatively because I don't want any problems. That much harder to sell ( and will depreciate even more ) if I have to disclose the vehicle has already had a RMS issue.

A wise poster here ( B.L. ) once commented that I may not have the personality to own a boxster. I unfortunately think he was right on the money with that.

[Ronzi]

Even legal action is no guarantee that the general public would ever be privy to any warranty data that might be presented in court.
Cases of this nature are very often settled out of court, with all parties agreeing to keep their yap shut, on pain of forfiture of the settlement, further legal action, or whatever.
The net result is the defendant fixes somebody's car for a few bucks, plus maybe a few more bucks for their trouble, but all of the evidence presented never sees the light of day.
A class action suit?
I get a dime, you get a dime, and the lawyers make a bundle.

[BoxsterSbob]

Unfortunately, that can be true.

But, I think the point here would/should be that Porsche consumers will not be abused.

I can't image that the fix would cost them that much? Does anyone know if the V6's or V8's have this issue?

And, again if the Subaru flat 6 doesn't have this defect -why should my Boxster?

Maybe they should buy the seal (block) from Subaru’s supplier?

[MikenOH]

Both use a flat layout rather than a V but I'm thinking that's where the similarity ends.
I'm not familiar with the Subaru block/crank set up---do you have any info as to how the crankshaft is supported in the Subaru vs. the Boxster? The Boxster's crank in supported by some sort of cradle that is bolted to the block casting--help me out guys, if I'm off on this.

I'd be interested in Subaru's approach to their "H" engine since the WRX's output is 300HP in it's newest configuration. I could be wrong but I'd guess their approach to the block rigidity is more conventional than Porsche's. Last I've heard, their isn't an RMS club on the WRX forum.

In any event, I think it would be an interesting comparison to see how two different car manufacturers with engines of similar design, dealt with supporting the crankshaft.

[jamscal]

You guys are scaring the crap out of me.

I have a few questions if you don't mind, and I'll tell you my story.

Bought my '01 S from a speciality car dealer. It was a lease return apparently. Had around 20K miles.

I did what I thought was research on the model, read about the RMS Leak, but didn't and still don't fully understand the ramifications of that. Certainly not complete engine failure.

Dealer said (HA, I know) Boxsters are reliable, etc. you probably don't want an extended warranty.

Test drove the car, got it heated up, etc. There were no oil leaks either after it was hot or before, parked on the epoxied showroom floor.

The car has been wonderful and trouble free, but lately, I guess 5 months after I've bought it, I see a few drops of oil on the floor...I'm assuming RMS. Center of car...I'll check it out when I have time.

Questions:

1. How does a leaking seal cause complete engine failure, where the end result is the purchase of a 10k engine?

I can understand how a catastrophic failure of the seal, and the engine running, could ruin it, but how else?

I can also understand clutch problems w/ oil everywhere.

2. Should the RMS be replaced as a matter of course with a clutch replacement? Or only in case of a leak?

3. Is there some sort of web site with complete info regarding the RMS issue, or is it just like this...a bunch of people discussing a problem to the best of their knowledge.

I'd like to see a comprehensive discussion of the problem, all the ramifications of the problem, stories of the complete engine failures (Haven't seen much on those, online, firsthand at least), etc. on a website.


Thanks in advance for any help or enlightment.

James

'01 Boxster S
Orient Red
18's
And I still love it...so far.

[gRed04]

Originally Posted by jamscal

1. How does a leaking seal cause complete engine failure, where the end result is the purchase of a 10k engine?

Hi James,

There are really two RMS leaks you hear about.

One is a leak due to a defective seal. Just need to replace it and you are good to go.

The second is a leak due crankshaft movement. Replacing a seal here does not help and this is where you may need a engine replacement. Porsche has a tool that checks and determines this condition.

There is alot of discussion that the engine design causes ( or allows ) crankshaft movement so it is believed that potentially all engines will eventually have this issue.

Not sure I buy that as you can read about many happy owners with lots of miles and smiles. However, I am no mechanical engineer or even mechanic for that matter so just my opinion.

I thought someone published a pretty good tech article about this issue in detail. Anybody have the link to that? Thought it may be PCNA?

[Brucelee]

I hope we didn't wig you out too much. Frankly, I don't have any data that suggests that Boxster motors crater at any greater rate than others.

The RMS issue is real though and no, we don't have any reliable publised numbers on how likely you would be to get one.

If you develop a good relationship with your service advisor at Porsche, he will give you tons of good infor on the car, most of which is never published.

[MikenOH]

as Bruce said, don't be too freaked out. I just voted with my wallet and bought an '06' after owning a '99'. If I thought that major mechanical problems were a given, I'd have gone another way.

Having said that, extended warranties can take some of the worry out of owning a car like a Boxster. I bought one for the '99' from the dealer and it ran about $1500 for an additional 4 years; we only drive 6K/ year so mileage was only 60K total on the coverage. I felt better buying it from the dealer-the policy was under written by Primus (Ford)--rather than a stand-alone insurance company given how one extended warranty company failed recently.

Not sure if you can buy one for your car now, but GEICO(?) I think offers coverage on mechanical parts as part of their automotive policies. My brother had a Chrysler tranny replaced at around 80K and it only cost him the $200 deductible.

[jamscal]

Thanks for the clarification and reassurance, guys.

I've read a bit more on it at PCA.org...but there's a bunch of info to look at.

I guess by 'bad engine' it is meant that it won't hold allow an RMS to seal, due to the crank not being aligned, and not that it locks up/ stops running.

I also infer from some sites that Porsche replaces (Replaced) engines under warranty, and they are shipped back without being opened... making an aftermarket type solution difficult or impossible, at least this early in the game.

That is, if there is a solution.

BTW I have a Nissan vg30et in an early rx-7, and they use one of those 'crank cradles'... supposed to be super strong.

I've read where the stock vg block was used in those red white and blue Nissan GTP cars from years ago, to 700HP.

Thanks again,

James

[RandallNeighbour]

jamscal:

One thing no one has written to you yet is the fact that a drop or two of oil on your garage floor should not be instantly assumed to be an RMS issue. My driver's side cam cover drips a little now and then, and what I thought was an RMS leak turned out to be some oil dripping from the filter housing after an oil change.

My mechanic said lots of boxsters and 996's have cam cover leaks... and not to be bothered by it until it gets stead or you have a couple of hundred bucks to throw at a new gasket and labor. I see no noticeable loss in oil due to this leak.

Don't jump to conlusions. Get the car on a lift and look at it with a flashlight. You may have little to worry about.

Plus, the RMS issues typically start as a drip and then get worse from what I've read, so if you watch the garage floor it will tell you if the car is symptomatic before you have catastrophic engine failure. So take another deep breath

[Ronzi]

I don't think the issue is whether or not the RMS ultimately leaks. It's probably like a water pump. Every car that has one will ultimately suffer a water pump failure. But that doesn't necessarily mean the pump or it's design was defective.
The question is one of premature failure.
What, then, is premature failue?
We could probably all agree that RMS failure at 20k miles would be premature.
How about 50K miles?
How about 50K miles with a (gasp) RACING or DE history?
How about 80K miles?
Etc.
If we ever see the results of this "survey" that is presumably being conducted independantly of Porsche, we may get a few answers, such as are the newer cars statistically less likely to experience RMS failure, or failure at increased mileage. I suspect this is the case but obviously I have no data to back up that opinion.
This issue is probably much like the 911 timing chain tensioner situation from years ago, mentioned earlier on this thread. Porsche made a series of design changes that over time resulted in the elimination of the problem, but it took a while.

[Brucelee]

Cam cover leaks are pretty common on the Box. I got charged $550 for one repair.

[BadBoyS]

I did a RMS search but can't find the info I am looking for. What is the composition of the seal??? I know Chevy has the same issue It's been known about for years. i have rebuilt a few engines and there is aways a debate on how to put them in and if they do leak some try some of the store bought remidies BLAH BLAH. Is there an additive that can swell the seal if it is the right composition? Is there an additive to extend the rebuild out come?? I know some that have used a Alumiseal to fix a head gasket leak and either buy them time or fix the problem... At this point TG I am not having the issue And Sorry for all that this has hit..

[RandallNeighbour]

It has been rumored that some have used a Cayenne's RMS to replace the boxster's RMS and found it worked better. Price is similar, but it's supposed to be designed differently.

But that's just what I've read. I dunno if it's really true. My mechanic said he'd heard about it as well from his dealership.

[BadBoyS]

bump bump bump

[mquillen]

I'm not sure how Subaru supports their cranks in their boxer engines, but they certainly have their share of problems with their design, including head gasket issues that allow oil into the cooling system (or worse). Subaru's answer is stop-leak. I have a problem putting stop leak in a vehicle that only has 41k miles on it.
http://www.subaruproblems.com/
Many of their engines also suffer from piston slap when cold, sounding like a thrashing machine, which they consider "normal."
So I'm not sure I'd go there for any solutions.

I had a '99 Miata that was in the build dates that had the dreaded crank end play/bearing problem, and though my engine was not effected, I had to prove that it wasn't when I sold it.

I also own an '00 Acura TL that had to have an extra oiler added to the automatic trans to ensure proper lubrication. Acura has extended the warranty on these vehicles to 8 years or 100k. It is my understanding that they are even repairing trannies out of warranty, but who knows how long they'll do that.

I recently needed two new rear wheel bearings in my Subaru (a known design problem), when I told my dealer that I wanted to talk to the Subaru rep, they declined since my car is not under warranty due to age (6 months past). When I told them I wasn't going to pay the $800, they filed theft of services charges against me, which was later dropped after they knocked 200 off the bill. Needless to say, I won't be doing business with them again (or with Subaru).

It seems design issues are running rapant these days. There are MANY "secret" recalls on vehicles. It doesn't surprise me when there are issues with mass market vehicles, but I expect something better from the premium manufacturers. Something is disjointed when highest profitability = unresolved quality/design issues. Is that part of the Porsche "mystique?"

[99-Boxster-MK]

Here is a not so simple question....

How much do you guys think it would cost for porsche to re-design their boxster engine?

Of course there are no guarantees the re-design would fix the problem or not cause another one, but lets assume a re-design fixes the RMS.. I can't imagine it would cost that much money or time?

Mike

[Brucelee]

Sorry, as a consumer, I see no legitimate reason for this RMS issue to continue.

As for a redesign costing a lot, why is this my issue?

Porsche redesigned the engine in 1998 in the 911. They booted it, they should fix it!

The car costs $70 plus, would it be too much to ask that the drive train be bullet proof?

I will end my tirade with one word.

Lexus!

PS- My wife has had Subarus since 1994. Not one visit to the dealer for a snafu.
Only routine maint.