Would you have gotten PDK if they offered it on the 986?

[RandallNeighbour]

I've not driven one yet, but I bet I will love it and plan to have it on my next Porsche. Makes DEs more fun (less downshifting to think about) -- my opinion -- and makes it a great DD for sitting in traffic.

[rondocap]

Is there any evidence so far to say that the PDK may be unreliable? I think it has proven fairly reliable thus far, even though it's only been out since around 2009 right?

Time will tell! But I think it looks good and stable, definitely not as bad as the IMS issues.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by rondocap

Is there any evidence so far to say that the PDK may be unreliable? I think it has proven fairly reliable thus far, even though it's only been out since around 2009 right?

Time will tell! But I think it looks good and stable, definitely not as bad as the IMS issues.

There have been reports of them failing to shift properly in the automatic mode (shifting up or down for no reason while driving at a constant speed, failing to up or downshift when they should), as well as some that started having difficulties upshifting manually (shifting on their own instead of holding a gear until commanded to shift in the manual or sport modes). In some cases, uploading new software either helped or eliminated the problem, but there were more than a few that got new gearboxes. Because the PDK is used in so many different models, in typical Porsche fashion, no definitive information is available about model distribution or frequency of issues or replacement.

The PDK has been a topic of conversation in the independent repair market for some time as Porsche has made it clear that the only way to get new software updates for the transmission is their dealer network, they will not allow those that license the PIWIS system to do it, and the PIWIS remains the only diagnostic tool capable of reading the transmission related codes, or even do the required oil system changes.

[shadrach74]

Leaving out the maintenance concerns, if I look at it from a purely functional point of view I can see how the PDK could be easy to live with. I've got some stick time in a Panamara PDK and after getting used to it, I can say it's better at shifting then I am, but not by a big enough margin to matter to me. I truly enjoy properly managing 3 pedals wit 2 feet simultaneously. I like the short, crisp "snick" of my SSK'd 986S. If you don't know how to heal and toe, a PDK will open up a "wholenuther" world of performance to your driving. If you do know how to properly heal and toe, you'll likely admire how we'll it changes gears, but soon miss the satisfaction that comes from those rare moments with a manual tranny when you get everything just right... brake, clutch, neutral, blip, downshift, throttle, all while near threshold braking into the apex. It doesn't workout that way often (for me), but when it does, you realize that no "Flappy paddle" (hat tip to Clarkeson) gear box will ever make you feel that way.

Also, I'm inclined to believe I'd like PDK more if they'd give it a traditional "H" pattern to move the shifter through... I hate the +/- stick on manumatics.

[Motobob]

Then...no
Now...yes!

Bo

[ChrisZang]

I simply have to chime in here. After 6 years of driving, autocrossing, and racing a 986S with a 6 speed manual, my daily driver is now a PDK C4S.
So I am probably one of the few (or maybe the only) posters who have actually extensive seat time in a PDK car. And I can tell you: PDK is the best of both worlds. Normally I leave the PDK in manual mode and shift using the paddler shifters. However, when I am stuck in stop and go traffic I simply switch to automatic mode and don't have to worry about the clutch. And in manual mode it's just as engaging as if you have a stick and a clutch. It's the best of both worlds - seriously.
Track season starts end of March and I will do one session in manual only, one session in in Sport Plus mode in fully automatic and one session in Sports mode, with me doing the shifting when necessary. I am pretty sure that if there's any difference it will be to the PDK's advantage. The argument that you are no longer in control with a PDK makes as much sense as not being in control without torsion bars or carburetors or drum brakes.
Guys and Gals, drive a PDK car, move the shift lever to the left (in manual) and then shift (hopefully with paddles, as the standard Porsche "Rubik's cube logic" buttons suck big time) and then please don't tell me that you felt you were not in control all the time....

[pothole]

Originally Posted by ChrisZang

I simply have to chime in here. After 6 years of driving, autocrossing, and racing a 986S with a 6 speed manual, my daily driver is now a PDK C4S.
So I am probably one of the few (or maybe the only) posters who have actually extensive seat time in a PDK car. And I can tell you: PDK is the best of both worlds.

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

+1 Everything Pothole said was right on the money.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

While I agree with much of what you've said, I take issue with the bolder statement. PDK is in fact a manual gear box with automated clutch and throttle inputs. It in fact has clutch and friction plates (2 sets). It is very fun to drive and is fast and more precise than almost any driver could be. I still find the manual tranny to be more gratifying. It's like putting a plane on auto pilot, it will hold a course more precisely and fly an ILS with no deviation, but it does not compare to the feeling one gets from hand flying well which one will lose the skill to do if always using technology to help.

I imagine people said the same thing about synchromesh when it first was introduced. Certainly there are not many folks that have a clue about double clutching anymore and on some level someone who drives a crash box well has superior skill too someone who can't.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

While I agree with much of what you've said, I take issue with the bolder statement. PDK is in fact a manual gear box with automated clutch and throttle inputs. It in fact has clutch and friction plates (2 sets). It is very fun to drive and is fast and more precise than almost any driver could be. I still find the manual tranny to be more gratifying. It's like putting a plane on auto pilot, it will hold a course more precisely and fly an ILS with no deviation, but it does not compare to the feeling one gets from hand flying well which one will lose the skill to do if always using technology to help.

I imagine people said the same thing about synchromesh when it first was introduced. Certainly there are not many folks that have a clue about double clutching anymore and on some level someone who drives a crash box well has superior skill too someone who can't.

Sorry, chap, PDK is NOT a manual gearbox. Period. It's automatic.

What's it's not is a torque converter automatic. It's an automatic with two clutches etc. It changes gears automatically. It does not allow for manual changes. It's an automatic.

Moreover I don't care if it's faster and more precise than a human driver. That's an argument for having the car do everything as you just sit there as a passenger. It's an argument for the ultimate driver's car being one where you actually do no driving at all. And thus it's a non argument!

The synchro thing is a complete red herring too and one that people often bring up in a futile attempt to justify PDK. Synchro is just a more refined mechanism. It's doesn't take control and involvement away from the driver and hand it over to a computer and servos.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, chap, PDK is NOT a manual gearbox. Period. It's automatic.

What's it's not is a torque converter automatic. It's an automatic with two clutches etc. It changes gears automatically. It does not allow for manual changes. It's an automatic.

What? Not sure if you understand how a PDK works, but it most certainly does allow for manual changes. You move a stick and the gear changes. Only when you move the stick. Not before, not after, and not without you moving the stick. That is a manual (Latin: manualis: "of or belonging to the hand") action, not an automatic one.

Now I am no apologist for the PDK and I absolutely prefer the 6-speed, but the PDK does, in fact, "allow for manual changes." It also has an automatic mode that allows you to make no manual changes.

From reading various posts I'm not sure a lot of people understand this.

[rondocap]

Chris - you make good points. I have driven a few PDK cars as well, and I came to the conclusion in every case that yes it is faster, and more capable. At times I am sure it is more fun too, since you can focus on other aspects of driving.

But, and it's an interesting note: As a more recent manual driver, even I am having so much fun just physically moving the gear shifter around, learning heel-toe, learning to properly downshift, etc.

I have a BMW with paddle shifters as well - 335i. It's definitely fun at times, but the manual gives you that physical interaction that honestly the PDK cannot replace. So I see why people still like manuals. There is a reward element in doing a nice downshift and shifting smoothly.

Aside from that, PDK is definitely superior technically.

Honestly a manual works great in my base Boxster and in the newer Porsche base cars I have driven. When I do eventually go to PDK, I think for me it needs 2 things to keep it exciting: An "S" version of the car, and the sports chrono pack so you can get the faster shifts in sport plus mode. That way it gives you a new level of speed and excitement.

Otherwise, the manual really makes great and fun cars out of even the most seemingly underpowered Porsches.

[kk2002s]

Here is one of those "OLD School guys" again. Love the dance, love the shifting. I grade myself on every up shift and down shift I make. Smoothness, correct revs, all that goes into it. Definietly forces me to be completly involved with the driving experince. I know the new auto-clutch transmissions are going to be faster and quicker. Maybe they should put in a Placebo Clutch pedal to make us "Old Timers" feel more at home

[Perfectlap]

Have to agree. I would love PDK on my next Cayenne or Turbo Carrera (as long as the warranty is lifetime) but on a roadster? No way.
I'd have to do a truck load of daily driving to even consider getting rid of the lever.

As for peformance, sure the machine will be be quicker than the man, so why not just go fully automatic like some guys in F1 who don't even bother to shift any of their gears? That's where things are headed. But I see lots of guys looking for the PDK to put them closer to FTD bragging rights and that coveted $5 trophy at the next autocross or DE Cup. Laptimes go up, driver talent down.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Have to agree. I would love PDK on my next Cayenne or Turbo Carrera (as long as the warranty is lifetime) but on a roadster? No way.
I'd have to do a truck load of daily driving to even consider getting rid of the lever.

See, I feel just the opposite -- I'd have to be doing a lot more track work than I do anymore to consider moving to a PDK. Traffic is the very thing that would keep me in a manual Porsche forever. Why? Because there is NOTHING ELSE TO DO when you are stuck in traffic. Getting to slip the clutch and ease forward repeatedly is the only "skill" you're getting to enjoy/exercise/display that day. If traffic is light or nonexistent, or you're on a track, you can enjoy so many other aspects of driving that it might just make up for the loss of the clutch pedal.

[ChrisZang]

Porsche just announced the new GT3 models and they only come with PDK :-)

Just saying....

[Topless]

My heel-toe is reasonably good but I would gladly choose a PDK. Probably on my next car.

[ChrisZang]

Originally Posted by Topless

My heel-toe is reasonably good but I would gladly choose a PDK. Probably on my next car.

See you in Buttonwillow

[Porsche Chick]

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

[Topless]

Originally Posted by Porsche Chick

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

It's enough to say that the PDK is a revolutionary technology that eliminates most of the flaws with older automatic trans (significant torque losses, slow transitions, finding yourself in the wrong gear, sloppy downshifts etc). If you like it (and I do), buy one. If you don't, buy a stick. But don't knock it until you have tried it.

Chris, I plan to be there and I want a little right-seat time in your new ride.