Downshifting to First Gear q - new boxster owner

[mcomet]

Hi,

New Porsche owner here, I have a 2003 Boxster S.

Been a long time since I drove stick. My first few cars were stick so I have experience. Anyhow my question is how many people actually downshift from second to first gear when stopping? I seem to find myself in slowing traffic, braking, shifting down and based on stopping speed going from second gear right to neutral. If I hit first it's either for a millisecond and not worth it, or at enough rpms to be too soon causing me to slow more than I want.

Is it bad to drop from second to neutral? I have searched these forums for info about cruising rpms etc too and read several good threads about this and lugging and IMS etc... I am not looking to start a whole other topic about that..I think I got the info I needed about that... But I am really curious about downshifting to first....especially In stop and go traffic.

Thanks!
Comet

[Kenny Boxster]

Downshifting from second to first is not good with out A. Rev matching or B. Depressing the clutch all the way effectively rendering the gears in neutral while the stick is engaged in first. It's not bad to drop from second to neutral, you can do so from any gear to neutral with no problem, on the highways I drop from fifth to neutral and let it coast sometimes, then rev the car in neutral to rev match it when I want to get back in gear.

Not to hijack this thread, but does the boxster have a speed limit into shifting into first? I searched and found nothing, it feels that if I am going over 12mph, I cannot shift into first gear, almost the same as trying to shift into reverse while moving, which I know has a mechanism that prevents reversing.

[ekam]

Originally Posted by Kenny Boxster

Not to hijack this thread, but does the boxster have a speed limit into shifting into first? I searched and found nothing, it feels that if I am going over 12mph, I cannot shift into first gear, almost the same as trying to shift into reverse while moving, which I know has a mechanism that prevents reversing.

It's more like below 8mph... won't downshift to 1st from 2nd gear until I'm almost to a dead stop.

[Ghostrider 310]

Call me old school but I don't see the logic of downshifting to first period. You're either crawling in which case you can manage that in second more smoothly or going to stop which is always the better choice when going back to first. Some people hold the hill with their clutches too, never thought much of that practice either.

[986_c6]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Call me old school but I don't see the logic of downshifting to first period. You're either crawling in which case you can manage that in second more smoothly or going to stop which is always the better choice when going back to first. Some people hold the hill with their clutches too, never thought much of that practice either.

+1, old school here also.

[986_inquiry]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Call me old school but I don't see the logic of downshifting to first period. You're either crawling in which case you can manage that in second more smoothly or going to stop which is always the better choice when going back to first. Some people hold the hill with their clutches too, never thought much of that practice either.

this

2nd goes down to ~8mph. By then it's time to use the brakes

[sb01box]

I do not down shift if I'm braking to stop. Otherwise I do downshift (even inti 1st) if the road condition dictates it. Try to downshift and fully engaged before going into the turn.

[landrovered]

Brakes are for slowing, gears are for going!

[RobbieKnobbie]

+1

downshifting through the gears every time you stop is just shifting the wear from your brake pads to your clutch. Personally, I'd rather pay for a brake job given the choice.

Use the clutch for driving and your brakes for stopping

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by RobbieKnobbie

+1

downshifting through the gears every time you stop is just shifting the wear from your brake pads to your clutch. Personally, I'd rather pay for a brake job given the choice.

Use the clutch for driving and your brakes for stopping

On the best day that's all it's doing, way more likely you're wearing the synchros not a great idea for those who don't lease.

[stephen wilson]

Originally Posted by RobbieKnobbie

+1
downshifting through the gears every time you stop is just shifting the wear from your brake pads to your clutch. Personally, I'd rather pay for a brake job given the choice.

Possibly, but I bought the car to have fun! I enjoy few things more than a perfectly executed heel/toe downshift.

Starting from a dead stop causes most clutch wear, proper shifting causes very little. I've been H/T downshifting my '89 pickup for 22 years without a problem! It has close to 200,000 miles, original tansmission, and 1 clutch replacement @ 125,000. And this is with oversized tires, and hard usage in snow/mud.

[jcb986]

I drove muscle cars back in the 60's and only down shifted when showing off. Usually I just popped into neutral and braked. Brakes are cheaper than transmissions and replacing a clutch.

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

Possibly, but I bought the car to have fun! I enjoy few things more than a perfectly executed heel/toe downshift.

Starting from a dead stop causes most clutch wear, proper shifting causes very little. I've been H/T downshifting my '89 pickup for 22 years without a problem! It has close to 200,000 miles, original tansmission, and 1 clutch replacement @ 125,000. And this is with oversized tires, and hard usage in snow/mud.

You are right, a properly executed heel and toe downshift will wear the clutch very little, but the operative word is properly executed. An under revved or over revved downshift can wear the clutch more than a launch from a dead stop.

If I see a red light up ahead, or stop sign, and let's say I'm driving in third gear, I just left my foot off the gas and coast, in gear, until I'm going around 10 miles an hour and then just put the car in neutral and stop with the brakes. I don't see the point of downshifting to second, then to first, and putting wear on the synchronizers, which you will unless you double clutch, if you know you are coming to a dead stop.

[Frodo]

Since we've somewhat gotten onto this subject anyway, a h/t question, something I've never quite understood:

When you are braking and simultaneously 'blipping' the throttle, is the blip to

(1) rev match engine & transmission (ie you're doing it while the clutch is depressed and you are downshifting---after which you shift your right foot off the brake and back over to the accelerator to give it gas while letting the clutch out), or

(2) rev match the engine & wheels (ie you're doing it as you let the clutch out to accelerate, as in out of a turn)?

I'm guessin' it's (1), since the other suggests you're braking and trying to accelerate at the same time. But (acknowledging it'll wear your synchros faster) it's entirely possible to brake/clutch/down-shift all simultaneously without out blipping the throttle at all, until you start letting the clutch out. Is h/t primarily to save the transmission, or is it actually a faster way of negotiating a turn on a track?

[pothole]

Originally Posted by san rensho

You are right, a properly executed heel and toe downshift will wear the clutch very little, but the operative word is properly executed. An under revved or over revved downshift can wear the clutch more than a launch from a dead stop.

Yup, I bought my Box with a heavy clutch on 70k. Local shop insisted it would go at any moment. Have been rev matching all my shifts and 30k later, the clutch is still going - and despite plenty of driving in stop start driving. It's non rev-matched downshifts that really wear out clutches.

Thus when you see these cars with clutch changes well under 100k, you know they haven't been driven properly.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by RobbieKnobbie

+1

downshifting through the gears every time you stop is just shifting the wear from your brake pads to your clutch. Personally, I'd rather pay for a brake job given the choice.

Use the clutch for driving and your brakes for stopping

If you rev match your downshifts, you won't wear the clutch.

I'd forgotten just how much stress downshifts put on the clutch when you don't rev match until recently when I was in a GT-86 with a guy trying to drive fast but couldn't could heel and toe or even rev match on coast down. It was painful for the clutch and also upset the balance of the car horribly.

No wonder some people tear through a clutch in 40k and others see theirs last 150k. Even a fairly poor attempt at heel and toe is less wear on the clutch than not trying.

[stephen wilson]

When you say it won't go in to 1st, are you blipping the throttle? RPM changes so quickly with road speed in 1st, it will require you to match the RPM fairly well, or it can effectively "lock out".

I have downshifted to first @ 20-25 MPH while heel-toeing when I'm not stopping completly. It gives a hell of a drive out of the corner! I no longer bother, and just pull 2nd, because that aggressive blip to first feels a bit abusive. When stopping completely, there is no reason to shift into 1st, until you need to take off.

[Flavor 987S]

All the time. At a red light or stop sign.

[dmairspotter]

Can't imagine any situation where I'd down shift to first except at full stop. What would be the point? If I was to do it, I would definitely match revs.

[mcomet]

Wow interesting. I tend to drive by feel and sound so the answers are consistent with what I was thinking then. Shifting to first is pointless unless I am near a crawl and about to pickup speed again. I tend not to downshift to brake/slow excessively tho I might depending on speed of braking and wanting some assistance so I don't slam my brakes. plus it can be a little fun but generally I will downshift to slow to take corners and have the power to come out of them and accelerate. In street driving I tend to brake more while still downshifting with more matchup...

So here is a follow up q based on some responses... Is it really ok to shift to neutral from any gear? Do you have to match revs then? What if i was going 55 in third, saw stoppped traffic went to neutral by simply shifting and braking and did not touch or alter gas or rpms at all?

I would think that simply braking and shifting to neutral from a moderate speed would mean coasting and not being ready to accelerate. I was always taught instead to downshift thru each gear... in general... although first gear as mentioned especially in this car seems pointless unless starting from a dead stop.

Thoughts?
Thanks again! Comet