So this is an ethical question?

Bullcrap this is a bunch of folks who want Porsche to repair their cars for free or near free even thought they are the third owner or even purchased the car with a blown IMS. People that were first owners and were good dealership customers did get relief in some cases mostly as a good will gesture on the part of the dealers.

Porsche at its worst is 10 times more professional and ethical than most other car manufacturers. If you don't believe me, buy a Land Rover and experience their bedside manner.

Well you know what opinions are like and everyone has one. Porsche cars are typically babied, no winters, chronic crackhead like oil changes far before the intervals. People going through oil filters like their own feces looking for a disease. The cars are dawdled on and should last at least 100K, that's just my opinion which stinks like everyone else's. If Seinfeld blows a motor I'm sure it's tended too, for the rest the joke is on them, especially on decade old cars the company would rather forget.

PS Nobody said fix it free but a blatant no reply is the "bull" not the customers seeking council on motors blown under 30K or more laughable, replacement motors blowing up, PA thetic.

If this was a known failure after the manufacture of the engine and it did fail during r&d testing then these failures would have been calculated into the production costs. A cetain failure rate is expected by all manufacturers of most products. How they deal with said failures ia a different matter entirley.

There are too many manufacturers to name that have gone to timing belts, a broken timing belt will cause extensive damage to an engine. Many break before their normal service life is reached but I don't see folks lining up to sue them.

Is anyone familiar with the BMW e46 rear floor failure class action suit? By the way if you think an IMS failure is bad wait until you read this! This situation seems very similiar to Porsches with the exception that very few cars fail

E46 News: BMW Sub-frame Defect Class Action Lawsuit - Settlement Approved - Updated information - E46Fanatics

I'm trying to figure out if I'm one of the culprits here that are "full of spite, malice or greed." But while I work that out, I just have to throw this out there...

I agree, the numbers are clearly relatively small. But for those folks with suddenly stuck with the ton of scrap I alluded to earlier (especially those who bought the car new, have had it only a handful of years, and have put under 40 or 50k miles on it), that number suddenly becomes 100%. That's just not right, and if you can't understand that, I confess that I just don't understand how your mind works.

A lot of people seem to have this notion that Porsche makes racing machines and that if you buy one, you really ought to be tracking it AND (whether or not you track it) you need to be ready and willing to throw LOTS of effort and/or money into it to keep it running. I've owned mine (and have read forums such as this one) long enough to understand that. And though I don't have the annual income of a lot of folks that have posted on this board, I've even come to accept much of the uncertainty that comes with owning a European-made sports car. But lots of people who are simply in the market for a snazzy, good-looking two-seater that's also a helluva lot of fun to drive don't think that way. Blame Japanese car reliability, whatever, but people have come to expect more from a car that they bought new.

When an IMSB goes kaput and the very expensive engine wrapped around that bearing proceeds to destroy itself in the blink of an eye, it IS a big deal to the person who, just a short number of years before dropped a pretty good-sized chunk of change on it to buy new. This isn't a battery that dies 2 months after the warranty runs out. It's not even analagous to the early Ford Tauruses who's automatic transmission suddenly quit doing their job and needed replacing. You might grumble about it, you'd feel a pinch in your wallet for awhile, but still---THAT you could fix for $1500 and still have a car that went for another 100k miles. And I'm not so sure the timing belt analogy applies here. For one thing, they (in the vast number of cases) last WAY longer than some (a few, granted) M96 engines. For another, they're not particularly expensive to replace in a preventative maintenance fashion. And for those rare cases where they do snap 20k or 30k into the life of the car (or the life of the most recent belt), I think the owners probably do have grounds to take legal action. They probably don't because of the time and hassle that would entail, and because, when you get right down to it, typically those engines aren't all that expensive to replace. With the M96 it's a whole different ballgame.

For people who find themselves in that boat, this is NOT about being "full of spite, malice or greed." It's about Porsche (to whom those very descriptors might very reasonably be applied) doing the right thing...something they don't seem particularly inclined to do.

[Haven't read the BMW reference yet---I gotta go to work!]

I'm familiar with the subframe issue and it's not even close to being as bad as the IMS issue. I'm not talking about frequency, I'm talking about consequences for owners.

IMSB failure can generate bills of $10k, $20k etc. I tore the subframe on my BMW and had it repaired for about $700. Sure, for some people the bill was bigger. But nothing like the cost of installing a crate engine from Porsche. Not. Even. Close.

I'm surprised at the attitude of some in this thread. In my view, addressing the IMSB problem earlier would not have been financially odious for Porsche. They have now solved most of the problems, it seems.

That the company failed to solve the problem for so long (as well as all the other major issues) shows scant regard for customers or the company's heritage. I don't actually think any of this will hurt the company, even if a class action suit suceeds. I just think it's a real shame that there's a whole decade's worth of Porsche sportscars out there with uneccessarily crummy engines.

^^^ I could not agree more!

Well, that's the problem - you don't own and run Porsche. The people who do - and they are the only ones who truly know the actual failure rates - apparently decided that a change to the IMSB was not a priority.

Customers? Are you saying that the folks who have had IMSB failures (all engine failures are assumed to be IMSB - I think it was Jake who said he'd identified more than 20 "modes of failure", and on this factor I tend to believe him) bought their cars from Porsche? If you're the 2nd, 3rd or 10th owner I'm sorry, you are not a Porsche car "customer" (you might be an indirect parts customer). As for the company's "heritage", I think the ultimate impact of the IMSB "issue" is very uncertain. The "heritage" argument, of course, has been used by many actual car customers to say that even producing the Boxster has devalued the brand and dis-respected the "heritage". Same with producing water-cooled engines. And SUVs. And mass production. And automatic transmissions. And air-conditioning. And multi-speaker stereos (which have been uniformly awful!) . And electronic steering. There's been so much "heritage" reduction going on, the brand must surely be held in very low esteem by now.

You might have a more salient argument if Porsche took care of all the original purchasers. It's also worthwhile to note the cars were not Escorts priced at about 15K, in fact the engine replacement is more than a new escort complete. You can make a case for it being why Saab is out of business but every little thing that crapped on my dad's three Saab cars was replaced free, a radiator after 30,000..

No offense or anything, I'm sure you're a very smart person, but this is clearly not your field of expertise. Probably best to quit while you're... only this far behind. :)

Uhh, Excuse Me?? What makes you the expert here? I what I need to know about these cars, and also more than a bit about the legal profession, believe you me...

But for the ":)", offense would have been taken!

Man, you're just digging it deeper. Is that supposed to make sense?

As to your knowledge of the practices of the legal profession... okay. I stand corrected. Your suggestion that a corporation would litigate a major class action lawsuit (and believe me, they're all major) by using corporate counsel instead of retaining outside litigators sounded like someone who didn't know what they were talking about with respect to commercial litigation.

Wait... it still does!

They didn't? I dunno, it's been a while since someone like that has popped up, but my vague recollection is that if you were 1) the original owner, and 2) dealer maintained, that even if you were out of warranty (by maybe a year or two) that they might offset some / most of the cost.

But if you honestly feel that Porsche should furnish a new engine to a 3rd (or more) owner of a vehicle that is anywhere from a couple to a dozen years out of warranty, when any of those owners might have "upgraded" their oil to their synthetic of choice (in retrospect, all those oil threads have disappeared - maybe that's one of the good things about the IMSB issue - people have stopped trying to "innovate" the lubrication), bolted on the latest shiny intake / exhaust, chipped the car for better performance (because Porsche doesn't understand how to make their engines perform), and flogged the car mercilously (nobody confesse to overrevs but somehow the OBD magically shows this, must be another conspiracy), then I think it's fair to say that you will be disappointed.

FWIW, my Lexus dealer has performed out-of-warranty fixes on my GX470 free or at a significantly reduced rate, and each time they've requested that I not share the details on a public forum. So I can easily imagine that if Porsche NA and/or the local Porsche dealer did something above and beyond their warranty obligation, we might never hear about it.

This is a good debate and everyone should feel welcome to express their opinion on the topic, including you and including Frodo. There is no need to be an ass and make personal attacks.

I was peripherally connected to the GM Exploding Side Saddle Gas Tank litigation 15 years ago or so. People were getting blown up or burned alive in their GMC pickups because of a faulty design that more than one GM engineer had warned about in writing. Unfortunately, management ran the numbers and decided that a recall of however many million trucks were affected would be much more expensive than the cumulative cost of the litigation of the small number of people who would be burned to death in the trucks.

I say all this to say that juries are very impressed by such revelations, and tend to reward plaintiffs rather handsomely (to the tune of 9 figures in the Shannon Mosely case, including $101M in punatives!) But when a bunch of "rich" guys get stuck having to buy engines for their out-of-warranty Porsches, that's a lot tougher sell. Bank on it: a class-action or an individual lawsuit against PAG is a non-starter.

No lawyer here, just saying that when Kodak was sued they used the council they kept on their own staff to dissuade further action and mute the complainers. As for the engines I'm quite sure when a 986 is sitting on a DEALER lot they don't make any mention that a thousand miles from now if it explodes you is on " yur own", seems like that might thwart sales. I'll go to the grave saying they owed everyone at the very least a communication in response to the problem being reported.

If you want Porsche support on a used car the purchase a Certified Pre Owned car with an extended warranty. If you bought from a private individual and opted not to purchase an aftermarket warranty ( there are many and they cover oiled parts) then you have made the choice to roll the dice on future repairs, how does that savings jingle in your pocket now?

Extended warranties are for chumps, in the long run you do better without them. Again I refer you to the dealer scenario, if the dealer says "I'd get the extended warranty" then a wise buyer should check the ol google, eff the car fax. I have no plans on extending the factory warranty, either it makes it or it doesn't the coin I'm jangling is the warranty cost I squirreled away for repairs.

Not sure what you're talking about (Kodak is probably sued weekly, or were when they were a relevant company), but what I'm pretty sure they didn't do is go into a courtroom and try to represent themselves in class-action litigation. It's kinda like asking the service writer (who knows a lot about Porsches and is very familiar with what the parts are and has maybe helped a tech do an oil change, and is excellent at managing the work of the techs) to perform a G50 transmission rebuild on an 88 Carrera 3.2 with his own two hands.

Noga I can't be sure about all cases but they did use their own lawyers in certain disputes, others I'm sure they farmed out.

From another website

"I do have an aftermarket extended warranty with no deductible. It cost me $2700. I received a new remanufactured engine that, including labor charges, would have cost me $12,000. Buying the extended warranty was one of the smartest things I've ever done."

Some folks here might heed this guy's advice.

If the posts are referring to the extended warranty I mentioned, I do not mean the type of warranty that you purchase once your factory warranty runs out. Those are useless, more than half the time they don't cover it and the other half when they do cover it - you still have a to pay upfront then they will reimburse you later.

The extended warranty I was referring to that Porsche should have implemented a long time ago focusing on the IMS alone 100k or 10 year is like the warranties that Audi and BMW puts out.

For example, all Audi B7 chassis whether its A4, S4, quattro or FWD uses a cam follower in their HPFP. I'm not even sure what it does but the issue is that the coating on this "cup" wears out around 40-50,000 miles. Once it does, the entire HPFP is likely damaged with repair costs of around $2000-4000. This was a known issue to the Audi community and many new car buyers who frequent Audi forums were advised to go and swap out the cam follower regardless if its broken after a certain mileage as a preventive measure.

So Audi put out a no charge warranty saying regardless if its first owner or not, if the cam follower breaks then they will fix it. But it has to break first is the catch. Furthermore and I tip my hat off to Audi, the warranty says they will reimburse anyone who has already replaced the cam out of pocket prior to this warranty being announced provided the customer can show proof of work done and receipt from an indie shop. Amazing customer care.

I currently have several lawsuits pending against Ford Motor Company and they are using outside counsel. Over the years, I have sued Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen, Ford and Chrysler and they all used outside counsel. Of course, these cases were not class action lawsuits, but if the manufacturers are using (by my experience) outside counsel for smaller cases, I assume they would hire outside counsel for the larger ones as well.

The single highest profit item I ever sold was the extended warranty, bar none. I decided to throw the dice, my engine has no IMS and so far runs like a Swiss watch. I like my odds for not having a second failure if I'm wrong I'll deal with it that day.

FWIW, Warranty Direct included the Boxster in their list of "Top 100 Most Reliable Used Cars of the Past Decade" (albeit at position 100!): The 100 most reliable cars of the last decade (in order)

First time posting, here's my question. Would this stop any of you from buying a Boxster? I'm considering a 98 with 84,000 km (Canada). Never driven in winter excellent condition. Yes or No?

Maybe.....

This wouldn't stop me, if the PO has an excellent set of receipts proving the car has been serviced. Whatever you pay for it don't plan on driving it away cost free, at that age it's going to have needs. As for the IMS, I'd change it with each clutch with the cheapest version and you should be good to go. Frankly, I don't think my car suffered an IMS I think it was the chain tensioners, I asked what it turned out to be but never received any definitive communication. I also think these are still fairly rare events lots of guys going right to 100K problem free.

Nope. If something bad happened to this one I would go right out and buy another. I've owned 30+ cars and I've never had a car that was this much fun to drive. It's a rush every time I've turn the key.

Mine is a '99. I bought it with 93000 km and now, four years later, it has 124,000 km.
I've spent money on the usual maintenance items - brakes, water pump, plugs - and a small fortune on optional cosmetic upgrades - top, seats, shifter, handbrake, steering wheel, headlights, tail lights - but I have had no actual mechanical failures except for a clutch line that ruptured when a small sharp piece of granite got wedged between the line and the body and sawed its way through. Not really the car's fault. It is the most reliable car I have ever owned.

I do not lie awake at night fretting about an imminent IMS detonation. I think it is highly unlikely to happen and, if it does, I'll just fix it.

Buy your Boxster - you will love it.

"The plural of annecdote is not data" (anon)

I was aware of all of this when I bought my Boxster a little over three years ago, and nothing significant has come to light in the interim. You can now buy an IMS Guardian for about $400. Of course, you can buy a magnetic drain plug without sensor for less than 10% of that. Or you can put a plastic Jesus on your dash:
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/im...hQwO6cwDe4wF6H

I have none of these, my oil filter is always clean, and I sleep great at night.

I went with Ganesh for my dash.

I've said it before, I will not buy another new Porsche until they offer (at an extra cost is acceptable) a 10 year 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty.

I really would like to buy one of those new Boxster Ss.........

Please remind me not to ever sell anything to you sir.

Oh, such a clever fellow!

Okay, so I never practiced corporate law, was shooting from the hip on that one...so sue me. As far as I'm concerned, the matter of WHO represents them in a court of law is all but irrelevant to this discussion. It matters not a whit to me who represents them. My point, a secondary one, is that they have the resources to handle such matters with regard to both courtroom representation and with regard to fixing what they repeatedly screwed up in the vehicles powered by faulty M96 power plants. My primary point? HAD they had the decency to address the latter, the former would not even be an issue. They still could do this. Face the fact that there is a significant problem (albeit with an admittedly small number of their vehicles). Develop a corporate policy on owner-assistance in those cases, the details of which can be based on a myriad of factors for any given case: age of the vehicle, mileage, original owner vs second hand, maintenance records, etc. Don't make aggrieved owners grovel at the dealership level---that's not even fair to their own people, those making the sales and dealing with disgruntled owners. This policy could be reduced to some sort of formula-based approach, a sliding scale---they needn't throw a new crate motor into every car that dies a premature death due to a faulty design, nor do they need to compensate everyone who bought a car with an intermediate shaft---hell, if the thing blows at 150k virtually no one's gonna make a stink about it. A reasonable compromise is the key here, emphasis on the "reasonable." People---even those with vehicles that fall apart at 40k miles---can be reasonable when they're treated with decency and respect. When they get burned, they don't get bent out of shape when they are offered an evenhanded compromise. They DO get bent out of shape when, at the dealership level, they are handled in a patronizing manner, are offered empty platitudes, or, as in many cases, are simply blown off altogether. That's a pretty effective way to erode your future customer base---not only among the victims themselves, but among their friends and associates, friends of friends, etc.

Porsche is not going to go belly up on this, as some have suggested...of that I'm convinced. This is not about unfortunate souls being incinerated in vehicles with poorly designed fuel tanks. We're not talking about astronomical punitive damage awards here---we're probably not talking punitive damages at all. Simple restitution, that's all. I've talked to lots of people at various levels at a number of dealerships, and they offer the familiar slogan, the corporate line no doubt: it (IMSB) is an insignificant problem affecting an insignificant number of vehicles, and when it happens there are warning signs that allow owners to react and take corrective measures. That message just doesn't fly with someone whose IMSB failure---often with no warning (if what I've so often read on this board is accurate)---just rendered their vehicle virtually worthless. It's offensive...it's counterproductive...it's shameful...it's wrong. AND...it's beneath that Porsche heritage so many seem to hold in such high regard. And if the IMSB problem is as rare as all the Porsche reps I've listened to say it is, fixing it really shouldn't be that financially taxing for them should it?

And when I said I know what I need to know about these cars? What I was inarticulately trying to express in the short amount of time I had available to me was that I know what I need to know about these cars relative to the IMSB issue. I was in a hurry, had something important to attend to (aka going to work). So sue me again, I stand by the sentiment of my statements. NoGaBiker, are you a lawyer?...did I offend with the use of my "toady" adjective?? If so, my apologies...what can I say? I was on a roll, my fingers on the keyboard just sort of took over. It happens. I'll try to curb my sarcasm if you'll do the same. Deal?? :cheers:

I've had my Box for 7 years now. I STILL to this day drink in the beauty, the wonderful lines, of this car every time I walk into the garage, still eagerly anticipate the exhilaration of the next time I drive her. Sounds hokey, I know, but anytime I'm around it, I find myself whispering quietly, "Oh Baby, I do love this car." Unfortunately, I am much less impressed by the individuals running the company that makes it. And that's a real shame.

Yes. If everyone who bought an M96 gets $400 and Porsche declares bankruptcy, so be it. They are no different than any other big corporation. Too bad so sad.

Of course, your Armageddon scenario would never happen, because (a) Porsche is rich as he!! and paying $400 per customer would be chump change for them, and (b) because they would settle for providing an extended warranty (that they ought to have done in the first place). The extended warranty would cost them nothing if the IMS is really as trouble free as certain people seem to believe. Yeah, the IMS is just a great engineering design. Because there were no IMS problems, Porsche itself changed the design over and over before abandoning it altogether. Uh huh.

These cars are not well engineered and the company has piss-poor customer relations. They deserve what they get. It's not just the IMS, it's also D-chunks and slipped sleeves on the old ones, and now oil starvation and scored cylinders on the new ones. It's installing seatbacks on the 986 that are so short that tall people can hit their head directly on the rollbar in a rear-end collision. It's steering that can't make a sharp turn in reverse in winter without making a sound like an explosion. It's frunks that can't open to replace a dead battery without a huge rigamarole -- because they opted for an electronic opener instead of a simple wire. It's convertible tops on the 986 that can't fold if the temperature is cold because the cheap SOBs put a plastic window -- same technology as a 1960 MGB. It's the dealer who delivers your brand new car with cosmoline on the wheels and then the service manager tells you (after keeping the car all day) that you have to have another appointment to have the wheels repainted (it's OK, another forum taught me to fix that myself!).

IMHO they get by with murder because they produce a good-looking, fun car to drive and they've got a great publicity department, but legend notwithstanding, they are not just Hans and Dieter working in a garage to build cars for the benefit of all mankind. They are just another big corporation out to maximize their profits, and they actually brag that they are the most profitable car company in the world. And they are doing it unhindered because of the attitude of certain people who buy into the hype, overlook all their faults, cover for them, and actually feel sorry for them if anyone suggests they actually take responsibility for their own actions. It's pathetic, but it's the power of hype.

Is it really that bad????
 

I mean this as a legit question.

My 2003 S only has 26,000 miles on it (Not a daily driver until now). I expect to put a lot mre miles on it in the near future. After reading this site, and many others, I first got a little paranoid about the IMS bearing failure. However, the more I read, the more it looks like it is about a 1-4% failure rate. Sure when it fails it REALLY sucks, but it is not that common.

So now this thread is talking about a class action case and I just can't see that holding up. At worst let's say the 4% is the actual failure rate. How many products in the world have a greater failure rate than that? Honestly?!

We choose to drive expensive cars. They are not the most expensive out there, but if you don't want high cost maintenence or repairs, buy a Ford Fusion. I would be willing to bet they have a 4% failure rate on a major component. And I am a Ford guy (other than my Porsche). My wife had a 1995 (I think) Town & Country Mini van. The transmission went out at 38,000 miles (2,000 after warranty of course). Looked around the tranny shop and there were a ton of dodge/chrysler mini vans. No class action though.

Here is a quick internet search on failure rates, all above the Boxster IMS:

Repair rates for 3- to 4-year-old products.
Product Repair Rate
Laptop computer 43%
Refrigerator: side-by-side, with icemaker and dispenser 37
Rider mower 32
Lawn tractor 31
Desktop computer 31
Washing machine (front-loading) 29
Self-propelled mower 28
Vacuum cleaner (canister) 23
Washing machine (top-loading) 22
Dishwasher 21
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, w/ icemaker 20
Gas range 20
Wall oven (electric) 19
Push mower (gas) 18
Cooktop (gas) 17
Microwave oven (over-the-range) 17
Clothes dryer 15
Camcorder (digital) 13
Vacuum cleaner (upright) 13
Refrigerator: top- and bottom-freezer, no icemaker 12
Range (electric) 11
Cooktop (electric) 11
Digital camera 10
TV: 30- to 36-inch direct view 8
TV: 25- to 27-inch direct view 6

* SquareTrade

So enjoy the ride!

As a counterpoint, my wife's 2006 Corolla has never ever needed a single unexpected repair. We have replaced the battery and the brake pads, once, and that's it. For a city-driven, winter-driven daily driver in a northern climate I think that's pretty impressive. However, to put that into perspective, I absolutely hate driving that soulless crapcan and wouldn't even briefly consider it as a car for myself. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm glad someone said it! We choose to drive expensive cars, yes but we also buy them with the thought process that diligent maintenance and careful driving will yield longevity. The "expense" should not all be the handling and style, the car has to be reliable otherwise what exactly is the premium price tag all about? My "junker" was never even in the rain unless I was caught in it.

And there are some things you can do to reduce that individual probability (change oil, check filter, magnetic drain plug, IMS Guardian, IMSB).

More importantly, there are things you can do to mitigate a catastrophic loss, the most obvious of which are to purchase an aftermarket warranty, use the Porsche dealer for maintenance (building goodwill) - or else sell the car and purchase something else with a warranty.

But the crux of this whole thead is that there are people who don't want to invest in the former, don't want to mitigate, but still want to be compensated. There are also folks who move into a flight path, and then try to get the flight path moved or runway shut down. They are pursuing something in their own self interest, and trying to suck you in to their venture.