Sound logic on gas prices

[Perfectlap]

seems to me people want to drive big SUV and gas hungry sportscars and
not pay allot for gas like the rest of the world.

I guess we'll just have to wait for all that Oil the pro-Iraq war people were promising Bush. It's coming soon right??

funny story I recently met a girl who lives an hour away. At
$30 for 1/2 tank, I'm having second thoughts.

[Brucelee]

Your last point is amusing and EXACTLY what happens when the price of a good is increasing. Each consumer makes decisions about the use of that resource/service and then acts. Some folks won't date the girl, some will, some will ask her to meet at the motel half way.

Others will use their motorcycle for a romantic outing.

Re: the Iraq oil, the oil is flowing. In and of itself, it won't make a large dent in price, simply not enough there.

I think the interesting issue is that we are willing to fight a war around the world to ensure oil is pumping (among other things) but we will not confront the greens in the US on getting at more of our own oil or in building Nuclear PPs here in the US.

"let the good times roll!"

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

seems to me people want to drive big SUV and gas hungry sportscars and
not pay allot for gas like the rest of the world.

I guess we'll just have to wait for all that Oil the pro-Iraq war people were promising Bush. It's coming soon right??

funny story I recently met a girl who lives an hour away. At
$30 for 1/2 tank, I'm having second thoughts.

[Perfectlap]

I was just kidding about the Iraq oil. Yet I'm not so sure that it wasn't floated as a justification for a premptive (read NOT an iminent threat) in Washington. Did our oil intelligence fail as well?

We can drill every hole in the world and our fixation with cars and travel will rise with it. Ever go for a drive on the highway and count the number of SUV's, Luxury gas guzzlers, PORSCHES, and pick ups? and once in a blue moon you'll seen one of those hybrid cars.
This country doesn't take well to being told "do you really need a 4 ton automobile?"
Its easier to feed the beast than to get it on a diet. A diet that would make our dollars go longer and perhaps give our children some clean air to breathe.
Humans have been on this planet for Millions of years yet we've done more harm to this little blue planet in the last 100 years than the previous 1000.

[Brucelee]

Well, I not sure where your points are headed?

Humans love being in motion, there is no question about that. From the horse to horsepower, this has cativated our attention for centuries.

Yes, I see no end to our love affair with mobility. In the long run, that love will drive us beyond petroleum products and to who knows what.

While I might think an SUV is a dumb thing, the great thing is that I do not have to buy one. I am free to spend my money on other things. Shoot, I can eschew driving altogether if I want. I love not having anyone else tell me how I should move around or if I should move around.

The key point here is that price IS the mechanism that makes supply and demand intersect. Mess with that mechanism and you are head for trouble. Just ask Jimmy Carter!

Specific to your comments on clean air, I suggest that you look at the modern auto in the US. For example, my wife's Subaru is so clean that the air coming out of the tailpipe is cleaner than the air coming into the intake (if you are driving in LA). IIt actually functions as an air cleaner.

The rap on autos and pollution is outdated at best.

Lastly, if you want to see environmental devastation, I suggest you research the history of floods, earthquakes, typhoons, forest fires, glaciers, ice ages, etc. I think our "fragile" plant has plenty of destruction "built in" and it has survived just fine. The doom and gloom of the 1970s forecasted our end by 1999 but here we are, just doing fine!

Now, if we can only survive the world that the "greens" have in store for us. We would all be riding bikes and wearing Birkenstocks!

IMHO!

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

I was just kidding about the Iraq oil. Yet I'm not so sure that it wasn't floated as a justification for a premptive (read NOT an iminent threat) in Washington. Did our oil intelligence fail as well?

We can drill every hole in the world and our fixation with cars and travel will rise with it. Ever go for a drive on the highway and count the number of SUV's, Luxury gas guzzlers, PORSCHES, and pick ups? and once in a blue moon you'll seen one of those hybrid cars.
This country doesn't take well to being told "do you really need a 4 ton automobile?"
Its easier to feed the beast than to get it on a diet. A diet that would make our dollars go longer and perhaps give our children some clean air to breathe.
Humans have been on this planet for Millions of years yet we've done more harm to this little blue planet in the last 100 years than the previous 1000.

[Perfectlap]

The rap on autos and pollution outdated?

There are a Billion Chinese who are buying cars at an alarming rate. And those cars are not beholden to the strict pollution standards that we impose.
A single mainland province of China has more people in it than all of the USA.
Add to that their commercial trucks, factories and their heavy reliance on coal for home heating and you have a giant hole in the ozone. Not to mention India and other highly populated countries and their outdated autos. We're not the only country with cars.


and THe rest of the USA isn't California. our environmental standards are much much less. Just travel to Texas which has some of the most polluted cities in the country.
ANd here in New Jersey we have more cars than people. Anyone who thinks that doesn't have an effect on air standards needs to read up on some of the recent EPA findings that forced the previous comissioner(and former NJ governor) to resign from the Bush Adminstration.
Even if our autos run at lower levels of pollution, people are driving more, walking less and more people own cars than at any point since the car was invented. All that consumption ads to gloabl warming. If you believe in that or as the current administration refers to it "gloabl climate change".

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

There are a Billion Chinese who are buying cars at an alarming rate. Add to that their commercial trucks, factories and their heavy reliance on coal for home heating and you have a giant hole in the ozone.

and THe rest of the USA isn't California. our environmental standards are much much less. Just travel to Texas which has some of the most polluted cities in the country.

There are a billion Chinese, but there are not "a billion Chinese who are buying cars". There are, however, many more Chinese now able to afford cars, and you can thank everyone who walks into Walmart for that. They now have jobs, and more expendable income due to those jobs. Two distinct reasons for that...

1. Our labor unions have priced the American worker right out of their jobs.

2. Americans want clean air, water, and soil, but are unwilling to pay for goods manufactured under those restrictions.

And maybe you haven't been to LA recently, but I've spent significant time there and in the DFW area recently, and LA seemed hands-down much more polluted than DFW. If California didn't have tougher pollution standard there would no longer be any freeway shootings there... because you wouldn't be able to see the car next to you!

[Brucelee]

All that and the air quality in the USA is markedly cleaner than it was in the 1970s.

China and India will deal with their air quality issues also.

Next disaster in the making?

Of course, we COULD have less air pollution if we want. We simply need to incur the costs. Drive less (a cost) mandate fuel economy standards that are higher (a cost) make the engines even cleaner (a cost) etc. etc.

Which cost would you incur and for how much cleaner air?

All of us are FOR things like cleaner air (even if we can't define that) esp if it seems to cost others vs our selves. If we had to pay for additional air pollution devices on our cars voluntarily, how many of us would (I wouldn't).

Re: global warming, give me a break!

The recent data suggests the polar ice caps are getting THICKER!

BTW- why is it bad that the Chinese are buying cars but it is OK if Americans are.

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

The rap on autos and pollution outdated?

There are a Billion Chinese who are buying cars at an alarming rate. And those cars are not beholden to the strict pollution standards that we impose.
A single mainland province of China has more people in it than all of the USA.
Add to that their commercial trucks, factories and their heavy reliance on coal for home heating and you have a giant hole in the ozone. Not to mention India and other highly populated countries and their outdated autos. We're not the only country with cars.


and THe rest of the USA isn't California. our environmental standards are much much less. Just travel to Texas which has some of the most polluted cities in the country.
ANd here in New Jersey we have more cars than people. Anyone who thinks that doesn't have an effect on air standards needs to read up on some of the recent EPA findings that forced the previous comissioner(and former NJ governor) to resign from the Bush Adminstration.
Even if our autos run at lower levels of pollution, people are driving more, walking less and more people own cars than at any point since the car was invented. All that consumption ads to gloabl warming. If you believe in that or as the current administration refers to it "gloabl climate change".

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

All that and the air quality in the USA is markedly cleaner than it was in the 1970s.

HAHA! Sorry Brucelee, but that was a good laught to start my day. Anyone that thinks the air is clean obviously doesn't look up into the sky.

Sorry but those aren't clouds up there. Also contrails and exhaust doesn't linger in the sky (especially at that high altitude) for that long.
They especially don't spread into a large cloud like this:


Next time you see a checker board up in the sky just ask yourself....."Why are they doing that??..."

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Re: global warming, give me a break!

The recent data suggests the polar ice caps are getting THICKER!

Is that why Bush was given a report two years ago that a large glacier on the polar cap had cracked, one that hasn't moved in hundreds of years??


Sorry guys, I'm not trying to knock anyone but unlike most of you, I have access to a lot of fed info. All I am saying is "There are more important things to worry about, all of this is just a distraction"
Just my two cents from your friendly 986board agent.