Entry-level Porsche (identical to Boxster but cheaper) put on hold

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

The Boxster has bloated into a GT that is just an artificial step below the 911. If anything, Porsche abandoned the entry level with the 986.2 ...

??? Do you really see a big enough quantitative difference between a 2002 and 2003 986 to warrant moving the latter into the "bloated GT category?" Seriously?

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

??? Do you really see a big enough quantitative difference between a 2002 and 2003 986 to warrant moving the latter into the "bloated GT category?" Seriously?

Weight and price. BTW, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a GT. It's actually what most people want when they think they want a sports car. But there's significant weight differences between the first 2.5s and the last 986s.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

I LOVE 944s... you actually sit low in the car...

I happen to think I sit quite low in the Boxster...the steering wheel top is just below my eye level, and I'm well within the confines of the roll hoops...but I'm also 5'7". Just had to say something there to give you a hard time, blue. :dance:

Looking at it overall and where I'm (disappointedly) seeing Porsche go under the rule of VAG, the "entry-level" car doesn't need to exist. Porsche was built on racing heritage and prided itself on exclusivity and building a premium driving machine (I respect the M1 (NOT the 1M) and the M3, but BMW can stuff it), not just trying to get everyone within shouting distance to have a car with the Stuttgart crest on the hood. Sure, get them thinking about it, wishing for it, saving for it, and drooling over it outside the showroom glass, but don't start tossing out the equivalent of a VW Cabrio like hotcakes. This isn't a Scion tC we're talking about.

I happen to think the Boxster is quite entry-level, and always has been...it's your gateway vehicle into what is anticipated, by both the owner and the company, to become a long-time relationship and an eventual upgrade to one of the many variants of the flagship car. Yes, it's grown in girth/mass/weight as much as in sophistication, as do all cars that start out as raw, fun machines (RX-7, Celica Supra, etc.), but the base model is now putting out what the Boxster S was for horsepower 12 years ago...all with only a starting price increase of about $10k over a period of 15 years...if you ask me that's not bad for what's supposed to be a premium sports car (and yes, the Boxster started at $40k back in 1997) meant to get your feet wet in the world of Porsche and let you see what a performance oriented car can do. Yeah, it's no GT3, but it's still excellent fun to toss around and rewarding when you get it right...and you can comfortably drive it right back home when you're done.

As I've said before in a few different ways, when I think sports car, you can keep the radio, power everything, faux wood grain, and shiny accents and blah-blah-blah...all I want is a steering wheel, pedals, a manual shifter, the important gauges, plenty of horsepower to move a lightweight and well-sprung setup, and a place to plant my behind where all those things are within reach...you make me that, I'll buy it and thoroughly enjoy it and get my money's worth.

And it doesn't need to cost less than $40k...on the contrary, $40k plus keeps everyone else from having the same one, too.

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

I happen to think I sit quite low in the Boxster...the steering wheel top is just below my eye level, and I'm well within the confines of the roll hoops...but I'm also 5'7". Just had to say something there to give you a hard time, blue. :dance:

Looking at it overall and where I'm (disappointedly) seeing Porsche go under the rule of VAG, the "entry-level" car doesn't need to exist. Porsche was built on racing heritage and prided itself on exclusivity and building a premium driving machine (I respect the M1 (NOT the 1M) and the M3, but BMW can stuff it), not just trying to get everyone within shouting distance to have a car with the Stuttgart crest on the hood. Sure, get them thinking about it, wishing for it, saving for it, and drooling over it outside the showroom glass, but don't start tossing out the equivalent of a VW Cabrio like hotcakes. This isn't a Scion tC we're talking about.

I happen to think the Boxster is quite entry-level, and always has been...it's your gateway vehicle into what is anticipated, by both the owner and the company, to become a long-time relationship and an eventual upgrade to one of the many variants of the flagship car. Yes, it's grown in girth/mass/weight as much as in sophistication, as do all cars that start out as raw, fun machines (RX-7, Celica Supra, etc.), but the base model is now putting out what the Boxster S was for horsepower 12 years ago...all with only a starting price increase of about $10k over a period of 15 years...if you ask me that's not bad for what's supposed to be a premium sports car (and yes, the Boxster started at $40k back in 1997) meant to get your feet wet in the world of Porsche and let you see what a performance oriented car can do. Yeah, it's no GT3, but it's still excellent fun to toss around and rewarding when you get it right...and you can comfortably drive it right back home when you're done.

As I've said before in a few different ways, when I think sports car, you can keep the radio, power everything, faux wood grain, and shiny accents and blah-blah-blah...all I want is a steering wheel, pedals, a manual shifter, the important gauges, plenty of horsepower to move a lightweight and well-sprung setup, and a place to plant my behind where all those things are within reach...you make me that, I'll buy it and thoroughly enjoy it and get my money's worth.

And it doesn't need to cost less than $40k...on the contrary, $40k plus keeps everyone else from having the same one, too.

you basically just described a Lotus Elise........

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

you basically just described a Lotus Elise........

Indeed, or the 1st gen Esprit.

Neither of which is easily had stateside anymore unless you get a used Elise. But if I were to buy an Elise, I'd be doing so with the intention of having a fairly streetable track car, as opposed to a trackable streetcar in the Boxster. Either way, if I'm going to buy a car like that, it's with that intent of having a straight up sports car, and not because I want them to add leather, a subwoofer, and a cupholder every six inches of interior space.

Porsche kind of stopped making cars resembling that sports car image a while ago, I'm realizing, but the introduction of the 986 really seems to be the end of that period. Anything after that has started to lose the whole pure sports car thing and catered to people looking for a status symbol to flaunt at the workplace and garage otherwise, unless it's a 911/Carrera with a "GT", and possibly a number following, in its name.

And even then, who really drives the piss out of their Carerra GT besides that guy with the Gemballa one that cracked it up?

[.lovemy986]

If you want to enter the contemporary Porsche car market a used 986 will do. It gives you a lot of bang for the buck if you find a good one. Plus the platform allows you to upgrade the motor and with the mid engine design gives you an uncanny feel of thenroad. The ims problems have made the boxster a very affordable car in this current market. And because they cranked out a lot of them the price point is ridiculous right now. You can buy one with a blown motor for peanuts. I bought a 98 boxster about 8 months ago with a factory hardtop and have put over 45k on it with just regular maintenance and a ball joint. Most people think my car is worth between 30 and 40k. If you want something you can upgrade and stay pretty much current with a liquid boxer motor an early 986 or 996 provide the ultimate Pcar platform for peanuts. Add some litronic headlights and 18" rims and your driving a solid Looking car. Who knows maybe one people will clue in and you won't be able to get into a 986 or 996 so easily. I bought a mint 928 once in the late 90s for $7500 and that car today is probably worth 20k. It couldn't be a better time to drive a Porsche when you can pick up the late 90s models for chump change.

[Ghostrider 310]

Sorry I call BS on Porsche 986 being the end of Porsche sports cars, my car is everything you described including lacking in cup holders. Simply stated it would tear the door skins right off my 986 as it passed and left it for dead.

PS You can't drive the piss out of it or you would never be below triple digits

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Sorry I call BS on Porsche 986 being the end of Porsche sports cars, my car is everything you described including lacking in cup holders. Simply stated it would tear the door skins right off my 986 as it passed and left it for dead.

PS You can't drive the piss out of it or you would never be below triple digits

I do have to retract my statement to a point, Ghost, because I agree with you and simply overlooked the Spyder in my thought process. Fully agree with you that that is, indeed, a pretty much bare bones, no frills sports car (even if it does have the 987 styling), and even gets back down close to the weight of the early 986, and that's what I like about it. Definitely not a year-round, non-sunny day car, unfortunately, but that's about the only gig against it besides it not looking like a 986 . Low production numbers, fairly high price, and therefore, some exclusivity. That said, the Boxster Spyder is the exception rather than the rule these days at Porsche, and I don't think that's right. They could have also made something like that back when the 986 came around, but oh no, can't unseat the flagship. Cars like that, or the Cayman R, are the kinds of things the company did normally to make a name and distinction for the brand. I'm not as old as some folks who got to be behind the wheel when SCs and Targas made their debuts...my car drooling days started in the mid-80s and went onward (959 anyone ).

Maybe Panamera and Cayenne sales allow us to have things like that without astronomical pricetags, but it's really hurting the company's image for me, and if only offering legit sports cars means no Porsche will cost less than 6 figures, then so be it, I have to start figuring out a way to save for one that I want over a period of X years. Exclusivity, something that people know you paid for because it does something you want, like just be a damn fast and good handling car.

To your second point, isn't that what racetracks are for? And aren't those what sports cars, exotics, and supercars were meant to drive on at their upper limits? You don't put 200mph on a speedometer if the car can never really get anywhere near there. And to be clear, I wasn't saying drive it that way 24/7, but I don't see the guys with Carrera GTs sticking a GoPro on their windshield and putting a video of them flying around VIR on YouTube ever summer. I would if I had one. I want my money's worth.

[Ghostrider 310]

OD relative to the other manufacturers Porsche can still claim some accolades on their vehicle weight. Sure the new 911 cab in Excellence is almost 3200, yet the other manufacturers are even higher in weight. When you have to meet impact requirements and every new car toting multiple air bags, it's easy to get model bloat. I don't disagree with your premise which is exactly why I bought the Spyder.

In an unrelated story, Art Monk just made college football HOF. He was the most famous patient I ever had and I had his X on an x-ray request. I wonder if it would be worth anything today?

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Sorry I call BS on Porsche 986 being the end of Porsche sports cars, my car is everything you described including lacking in cup holders. Simply stated it would tear the door skins right off my 986 as it passed and left it for dead.

PS You can't drive the piss out of it or you would never be below triple digits

If I were to ever buy a 987, it would only be the spyder. But it's still 65 pounds heavier than my 986S was and I had a hood over my gauge cluster.

A faster car doesn't make a sports car. Everything from Aston Martin is fast and very capable, but there isn't a sports car in their line up.

Just compare everything you think of to a Miata and it will tell you if it's a sports car or not.

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

If I were to ever buy a 987, it would only be the spyder. But it's still 65 pounds heavier than my 986S was and I had a hood over my gauge cluster.

A faster car doesn't make a sports car. Everything from Aston Martin is fast and very capable, but there isn't a sports car in their line up.

Just compare everything you think of to a Miata and it will tell you if it's a sports car or not.

The Spyder would take the soul of your S and make the car eat it raw, then laugh at your silly hood hat, it's an effing rocketship! Unmodified 986 S= loss to Spyder all other factors being equal.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

The Spyder would take the soul of your S and make the car eat it raw, then laugh at your silly hood hat, it's an effing rocketship.

That's nice.

[Ghostrider 310]

Just telling you straight up not trying to be a dick but the 986S will not beat a spyder without mods.

zerotosixty.com

2011 Porsche Boxster S Spyder 0-60 mph 4.2 Quarter Mile 12.7

2003 Porsche Boxster S 0-60 mph 5.0 Quarter mile 13.6

I don't subscribe to this being a good measure of a sports car but to say the 987 handles poorly especially the Spyder is nonsense too

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Just telling you straight up not trying to be a dick but the 986S will not beat a spyder without mods.

zerotosixty.com

2011 Porsche Boxster S Spyder 0-60 mph 4.2 Quarter Mile 12.7

2003 Porsche Boxster S 0-60 mph 5.0 Quarter mile 13.6

I don't subscribe to this being a good measure of a sports car but to say the 987 handles poorly especially the Spyder is nonsense too

Performance numbers have little to do with how much fun a car is to drive.

If you can find that I mentioned anywhere that the Spyder or any other Boxster handles poorly, I will paypal you $1000.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

If I were to ever buy a 987, it would only be the spyder. But it's still 65 pounds heavier than my 986S was and I had a hood over my gauge cluster.

A faster car doesn't make a sports car. Everything from Aston Martin is fast and very capable, but there isn't a sports car in their line up.

Just compare everything you think of to a Miata and it will tell you if it's a sports car or not.

This is so funny -- deja vu all over again, as they say.

I've owned Miatas since 94, been a regular on Miata.net since 2000. One of the most oft-repeated thread topics is "has the Miata morphed into an overweight pig?" It started at 2170-ish pounds for a 1990 stripper, and a current power hardtop NC model weighs a little more than 2500 pounds all in. To the Miata crowd your 97 2.5 weighs about 400 pounds too much to be a sportscar. To the Elise crowd a 1990 NA Miata weighs about 200 pounds too much to be a sportscar. To the Midget or Sprite or Spitfire crowd an Elise weighs about 300 pounds too much to be a sportscar. Let me tell you, it gets old.

Sure, I could go with a definition of "sportscar" that says the Boxster is too heavy and civilized to be a sportscar (though I would disagree.) But to split hairs and say a 986 2.5 somehow makes the cut, but the extra 100 pounds of a 986.2 with its decadent glass rear window and functional quarter-pound cup-holder assembly now fails to make the grade... laughably pathetic.

[Overdrive]

^^^^I know what I read but what I kept thinking was "Stripper from 1990 named Miata"...and now I can't stop cracking up...

[blue2000s]

It's all a bunch of opinions here. I think most of us understand that. Try to keep it respectful nogabiker.

[Overdrive]

And I'm not saying a cup-holder adds weight, NoGa, one can't be that anal about things. My issue is with putting things like that in a car that I honestly feel doesn't need it (just my opinion, not claiming my word is law) and basically making it appeal to people who want to drive their Tiptronic 911 while they guzzle their morning slew of coffee bombing down the highway. To me, a sports car doesn't have the little niceties in it like that. I don't need a radio, I like my engine's sound just fine. I don't need fancy accents and materials on the inside, and I don't need a place to hold the drink I'm not going to be drinking because I'll be too busy driving the car...nevermind that with a car that does have a rather nice interior in it, including electronics, I don't want my morning cup o' joe to go spilling all over the place. The complete lack of a drink, and a place to put it, keeps this from happening.

I've gotten used to having cup holders in my Corolla, and sure, I use them...they're also low enough in the car that they're very unlikely to spill. When it comes to the Boxster, I know I'm not going to be carrying any accessible drinks, so I simply plan accordingly. Even if this car were my daily driver, I could live without them.

I have found that the combination of the front seat adjustment lever, lower seat bolster for the left leg on the passenger seat, and the passenger side of the center console make for a great bottled water holder, though, and without the need to shove it in place. It only dislodged from there once when I really had to jam on the brakes.

I definitely understand the need for more safety and just the eventuality that these things, be they more frame material, a dozen airbags, whatever, are going ot fatten up our cars, but other things aren't being done to keep the weight in check elsewhere, or power increased and tuning done to compensate for the difference depending on whether you're looking for efficiency or performance. Making a big deal of the 981's weight drop is just fluff to me, because I'm sure they could be doing more to drop weight in the car and maybe even squeeze a few more mpg out of the car to keep the finger-waggers quiet...win-win.

Getting a bit back onto the topic, I just don't see why there needs to be a car below the Boxster in the Porsche family. Just let VW make their little mid-engine car with their mainstay 2.0T engine and reap the benefits...I really doubt it's going to hurt the Boxster's sales that much. There doesn't need to be a Porsche equivalent, and no car at Porsche needs to cost less than $50k in today's dollars. Porsche does not need to become a Chevy clone to survive. They're already badge engineering the Cayenne, let's just leave it at that.

[papasmurf]

Should you take into account the weight of your typical passenger when considering if it is a sports car or not, does the extra weight of a painted console or glass rear window make a real difference in the performance of the car...what about the size of the coin holder....is $4 in quarters going to disqualify it from being a sportscar? As I see it, the difference in weight between an early 986 and later model is pretty small and is much about options order than anything else. Even a 987 is not all that much heavier than the earlier cars.

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

This is so funny -- deja vu all over again, as they say.

I've owned Miatas since 94, been a regular on Miata.net since 2000. One of the most oft-repeated thread topics is "has the Miata morphed into an overweight pig?" It started at 2170-ish pounds for a 1990 stripper, and a current power hardtop NC model weighs a little more than 2500 pounds all in. To the Miata crowd your 97 2.5 weighs about 400 pounds too much to be a sportscar. To the Elise crowd a 1990 NA Miata weighs about 200 pounds too much to be a sportscar. To the Midget or Sprite or Spitfire crowd an Elise weighs about 300 pounds too much to be a sportscar. Let me tell you, it gets old.

Sure, I could go with a definition of "sportscar" that says the Boxster is too heavy and civilized to be a sportscar (though I would disagree.) But to split hairs and say a 986 2.5 somehow makes the cut, but the extra 100 pounds of a 986.2 with its decadent glass rear window and functional quarter-pound cup-holder assembly now fails to make the grade... laughably pathetic.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

The Spyder would take the soul of your S and make the car eat it raw, then laugh at your silly hood hat, it's an effing rocketship! Unmodified 986 S= loss to Spyder all other factors being equal.

Given the direction that the 981 and 991 seem to be going, (a bad one) the Boxster Spyder may well be the best modern roadster that was ever made by Porsche. For one thing its still got direct lineage to the simplest, lightest, most driver-oriented Boxster, the original 986.
OTOH, If a 981 RS is launched it will be faster but the developments like electronic steering will take away driver involvement to compensate for a higher powered car. The more power they put into the 981 series the less involvement the driver will have to make those N-ring lap times look as brochure worthy as possible. That's why Porsche enthusiasts justifiably whine that the cars are getting less driver oriented. More power and faster lap times means the car must do more of the work and keep the driver out of the trees.

And the fact that the Boxster Spyder (TC Kline), without any engine or major suspension work, is lapping Laguna at 1:42, faster than prepared 997 GT3s by over a second, (and nearly 4 seconds over a CaymanS) tells me your claim of eating other Boxsters whole is not just trash talk.

all this initial "the Boxster Spyder is just a gimick to sell you less car for more money" has been utterly debunked at the track. Porsche are very wisely ending this design before any more rear-engined cars are further embarrased.