maf and throttle body diameter

[jaykay]

For your cold intake...

You should check out what Sparker, on here, did for his intake. Essentially he sealed a tube with an inline filter to the side scoop; cold air coming right in. I am sure there are others, tunners, that have done it as well. It was also in carbon fiber, but it looked great.

Perhaps if you insulated it, it could be what you are looking for. IPD seems to make all kinds of insulation blankets. I am also thinking the air would be moving so fast (straighter shot to the the TB) that there would be less "heat exposure" time in the engine bay. There is the problem of water injestion to consider though.

Next you need a little bit of a side scoop on the left side to get some free ram air pressure in there!

Originally Posted by The Radium King

ok, here's the quote from suncoast:

997-110-416-03 DISTRIBUTOR T 1 42.43
900-385-025-04 HEXAGON-HEAD 4 0.27 1.08
997-110-319-00 RUBBER SEALIN 1 5.49 5.49
N-011-524-27 WASHER 4 0.15 0.60
999-512-539-01 HOSE CLAMP 2 3.05 6.10

thats for the new plenum, four shorter throttle body bolts and washers, a gasket for between the throttle body and plenum, and two larger hose clamps for the larger plenum outlets. total $55.70 + $100 throttle body = $155.70 so far. all i need now is ductwork to the throttle body ($20 spectre flex duct from ebay until i figure out the geometry of my pending cold air intake) plenum outlet reducers (i'll wait for the parts to come so that i can confirm required diameters) and some tubing for the aos (only if i can't reuse oem; if not, i think i'll go with transparent so that i can monitor just what the aos is venting into my intake).

i still think i'll get in for under $200.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

fun. like a treasure hunt. not much info to go on. a red herring thrown in there to boot. the first image you provided had 'sharkwerks' stamped on it, so easy to find. that was an image of the sharkwerks 997 turbo plenum, so wouldn't work on our cars. at first you would think that the carbon plenum in the second image was related, as it was a carbon plenum with 'werks' on it. not so. no such product. so, i check the file name of the image you posted and it had 'tpc' in it. aha, i say, tpc has a carbon subsiduary. not so, as nothing on the tpc website. then i google 'tpc carbon plenum' and voila, werks is a subsiduary of champion motorshorts.

should fit the boxster (with larger throttle body). nice unit.

Werks1 - Porsche 997 Carrera/Carrera S Carbon Fiber Plenum

Werks is in fact a subsidiary of Champion Motorsports . Their CF products are made by a small company just outside of Boston. I had the occasion to meet the owner a couple of years back . Very ex$$$pensive, high quality stuff .

[ppbon]

I'm saying that your ripping me off when you imply that putting a bigger tee and throttle body together will be the same and cheaper than my kits (which include a full ECU remap, a new e-gas TB a new technoTorque3 and complete plumbing including silicone fittings and hardware).
I have nothing against hacking and being creative, heck I'm one of the first Boxster hackers!
But let's be honest and compare apples to apples.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by ppbon

I'm saying that your ripping me off when you imply that putting a bigger tee and throttle body together will be the same and cheaper than my kits (which include a full ECU remap, a new e-gas TB a new technoTorque3 and complete plumbing including silicone fittings and hardware).
I have nothing against hacking and being creative, heck I'm one of the first Boxster hackers!
But let's be honest and compare apples to apples.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Nothing he's doing constitutes "ripping" off. Fitting bigger throttle bodies to a car dates way back in hot-rodder history. There's nothing original about using new Porsche parts on older Porsches. No rip offs there.

If there is a "value add" that you provide over piecing together catalog parts (which anyone can do), then maybe you should play that up instead of taking a negative approach.

I don't understand the apples and oranges comment. This appears to be apples and your potential bigger apples instead.

[ppbon]

When someone says Pedro's setup is nice but it costs as much as the IPD.
That's not apples to apples.
The IPD is just a plenum.
My TechnoPower kits include a Plenum a THrottle Body all the fittings and hardware and an ECU Tune.
So if someone looking for information reads that statement and decides to buy the IPD I got ripped off and the buyer as well.
And if you install just a bigger tee and a bigger throttle body and you expect to see any power gains, guess who is getting ripped off then.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by ppbon

When someone says Pedro's setup is nice but it costs as much as the IPD.
That's not apples to apples.
The IPD is just a plenum.
My TechnoPower kits include a Plenum a THrottle Body all the fittings and hardware and an ECU Tune.
So if someone looking for information reads that statement and decides to buy the IPD I got ripped off and the buyer as well.
And if you install just a bigger tee and a bigger throttle body and you expect to see any power gains, guess who is getting ripped off then.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro

Again, if you add value beyond compeditive solutions, then you have a compeditive edge. With that you should be able to justify your price. Comments by others in this thread on the potential results without proof are just speculation, no one would take them as any more than that.

A rip off would be if someone copied your unique parts of the solution. If anything, you've done it to IPD, haven't you?

I have nothing personal at all against Pedro, on the contrary, I applaud all he's done for others in our community. But on this point, he's got no place to say he's getting ripped off by anything contained in this thread.

[jacabean]

i have a lot of respect for Pedro , he has done a lot for the boxster community . My thoughts on this topic was to accomplish what the IPD setup does for less money.
using the 997 S plenum , 997 throttle body and some home made connections was what i got from the thread. it could be done for around 500 . I don't see how this is ripping anyone off. does this achieve more air into the engine ? Yes .
the aftermarket needs to understand that these cars are getting old and have passed hands 3 or 4 times and require more maintenance and repair . the people who own them typically have less cash to work with than say a 911 turbo owner. The actual amount of owners willing to drop this kind of dough for this mod. are far and few.

[The Radium King]

again with the ripping people off comments.

from what i see, this post started 05-Dec, but you didn’t introduce your products on your forum until 09-Dec.
Johnny Danger asked you about a larger throttle body/plenum several months ago.
J.Fro got you to do a custom larger plenum for him last year.
IPD have been doing a larger plenum/throttle body for the 986 for a couple of years now.

my point here is that the concept of owning the ‘idea’ of a larger throttle body and plenum is tenuous at best; I do not think that you can argue that the idea of a larger throttle body/plenum was stolen from you.

so, we can only discuss what you have added to create your technopower kit, and whether this is (a) proprietary, and/or (b) of any benefit: specifically, a tune, and a plastic splitter added to an oem plenum to create the technotorque.

- i agree that a tune will add power in general, but disagree that it is specifically required to extract any benefit from a larger throttle body or plenum. this thread was about the larger throttle body and plenum. an analysis of how the bosch dme works, coupled with statements from folks who actually build, tune and race these cars, show that the dme can adapt to the increased air flow realised by a larger throttle body and plenum (this is why big guys like ipd sell their product without tuning). the bosch dme can typically store up to a 25% increase in fuel delivery (to adapt to a 25% increase in airflow) in the long term fuel trims (the ‘learning’ portion of the dme); no intake/exhaust bolt-ons will provide this scale of increased airflow outside of forced induction. given the above, the tuning component of your product is nether proprietary (there are many available) nor of benefit in this instance.

- i disagree that your technotorque provides any benefit. search this site and you’ll find that anyone who actually dyno’d the technotorque on its own did not see any gains. fluid flow analysis in this and earlier posts show that there is no science to support the technotorque either. given the above, while your splitter may be proprietary (but derivative) it is of no benefit.

so, if a tune is not needed to realise any benefits from the larger plenum/throttle body, and the splitter you add to the plenum is of no proven benefit, the ‘do it yourself’ solution is a $60 997 plenum and a larger throttle body (easily found for $100 on the used market); $200 max with required adaptors. let’s compare this to the pricing of your technopower kit as of 31-Dec:

- you sell your technopower kit for $1400.
- you currently sell your technochip flash for $500.
- if we subtract this from the cost of the technopower kit, you are charging $900 for a plenum and a throttle body (a $700 premium over our DIY solution).
- you sell your technotorque 3 modified 997 plenum individually for $300 (a $60 part with a proprietary plastic splitter added to it).
- Auto Atlanta charges $250 for the larger throttle body.
- this means you are charging $350 for several silicone adaptors required to install the pieces onto the car.
- it is understood that private enterprise must make profit, but here there looks to be profit taken on profit; there is already profit in the tune and the modified plenum, followed by additional profit on the overall kit.

given the lack of proven benefit, the $700 premium appears unjustifiable. i feel that for us to determine this in a collaborative, online, forum is not ripping you off. i further feel that your response to date has only strengthened this position.

[The Radium King]

sorry, double post ...

[The Radium King]

thread killah ...

anyways, an update. plenum and bits arrived and able to confirm that the couplers will be 3.75" to 3.25" (edit to fix a mis-measure) and readily available at siliconeintakes.com. the aos hose will reach ok and the connector will mate to the plenum; may need to get some heat on the hose to reform it once installed. still waiting on the throttle body, and have found a source for flexible 3" silicone ducting to connect to the maf housing.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

thread killah ...

anyways, an update. plenum and bits arrived and able to confirm that the couplers will be 3.75" to 3.5" and readily available at siliconeintakes.com. the aos hose will reach ok and the connector will mate to the plenum; may need to get some heat on the hose to reform it once installed. still waiting on the throttle body, and have found a source for flexible 3" silicone ducting to connect to the maf housing.

Great job TRK ! Keep it going, I'll be the first to follow .

[jacabean]

i would like to do this also , please keep us informed

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

thread killah ...

anyways, an update. plenum and bits arrived and able to confirm that the couplers will be 3.75" to 3.5" and readily available at siliconeintakes.com. the aos hose will reach ok and the connector will mate to the plenum; may need to get some heat on the hose to reform it once installed. still waiting on the throttle body, and have found a source for flexible 3" silicone ducting to connect to the maf housing.

Nice work. I take it you are sticking with the stock airbox??

The 997 plenum or perhaps we should call it flow divider points the wrong way when you put it in. I hope get a nice radius on the intake tube to smooth out the change in direction!

I am still thinking about the Cayman tee as a result of your post. It sure is shaped nicely especially if you put in the airbox. It looks like it is split down its length and as you mentioned has another flap to actuate. Not sure whether this just requires a vacum line teed off for it or it just flaps. Have a look here.

[The Radium King]

i'm pretty sure it's vacuum driven same as on the resonance tube, so i would guess a tee would work. the presence of the flap drives the cost cost of that plenum up over $200 new (vs $48 from suncoast for the 997 unit) but there should be lots of take-offs available used from cayman guys moving to the ipd product. note also that it has two aos connections, so you'll have to plug one or buy a cayman aos line as well. another observation is the hard left turn the air has to make once past the throttle body, vs on a plenum that is more square to the intake.

the 997 plenum is BIG and has very smooth radii. it comes out straight instead of angling off like the original so the old intake pipe can't be reused. note that you have to install it upside down to put the aos connection on the proper side.

i've got a bmc direct air injection (dia) intake that i'm going to use for an airbox, as well as a bmw maf housing coming that i am told is the appropriate size (part # 13621433566 or 0280217533 for those interested, but i can't confirm until i have it in my hands ** edit to add that it was only 74 mm compared to the oem which is 74 mm) and have found a source for flexible, silicone, 3" ducting to connect the throttle body to the maf housing. it should look very professional when done, regardless of what airbox used (oem or aftermarket). note that the bmc universal airboxes come in two sizes - 70 mm and 85 mm; you want the 85 mm otherwise you are introducing a restriction upstream of your 76 mm maf housing.

one thing interesting to note that the plenum/intake runner connections are 3.5" in diameter on each side, so the air expands once it passes through the smaller throttle body. that leads me to believe two things: any intake pulse tuning must happen in the runners themselves and the plenum is just a ready source of air (ie, making it bigger won't reduce low-end power) and anything i can do to get the air to the plenum as efficiently as possible will be of benefit (bigger throttle body, bigger ducting, etc., to the limit set by the maf housing at 3"). this begs dialogue on the next step of intake mods - a larger maf housing. the 3.4 996 engines use a larger maf housing that you could use in conjuntion with the gt3 throttle body, etc., but modifications of the ecu would be required to recalibrate maf readings.

[jacabean]

do you see any problems fitting the 997 plenum due to the larger size of the part ? are you going to use the larger 997 throttle body ? i was looking at the 101 boxster book and in the 3.4 swap he used standard 3" pvc pipe and a pvc elbow would you consider using that for your piping ? do you still think the major air restriction in the system is still the throttle body and tee plenum ? Sorry for all the questions i'm just trying to put a game plan together.

[jaykay]

I am still considering it (Cayman diverter tee) because a factory designed flow geometry/route would be in place and there would be no fiddle with the intake tube; the geometry would be known. I also noted the hard turn after the throttle body...perhaps this works well with partial throttle postions..maybe not. The 997 looks (my car is wapped up in storeage so I can't do or see anything right now) like it points away from the left side so one has to put in a nice big radius there to get the flow path oriented the right way..smoothly

I am glad you are happy with the 997 diveter tee; sound like it is the one from your description! I have not bought it yet as I cant get to my engine for a while anyway. Your set up sounds good too. I was thinking Cayman box or Sparkers set up....I think Techart uses a bmc can.

Difficult to say exactly but I would think acoutic pluses would interact with the incoming charge as well as the left and right plenum walls; my horse sense tells me that a GT3 TB on 3.2L might give you a high range power band that would be hard to drive on the street. I think the intake velocity might drop off too much at lower rpm.

I have a feeling that the DME will adapt to a slightly larger MAF housing as BR indicated. It is not what you would expect but that is the indication I got from a tuner....

Originally Posted by The Radium King

i'm pretty sure it's vacuum driven same as on the resonance tube, so i would guess a tee would work. the presence of the flap drives the cost cost of that plenum up over $200 new (vs $48 from suncoast for the 997 unit) but there should be lots of take-offs available used from cayman guys moving to the ipd product. note also that it has two aos connections, so you'll have to plug one or buy a cayman aos line as well. another observation is the hard left turn the air has to make once past the throttle body, vs on a plenum that is more square to the intake.

the 997 plenum is BIG and has very smooth radii. it comes out straight instead of angling off like the original so the old intake pipe can't be reused. note that you have to install it upside down to put the aos connection on the proper side.

i've got a bmc direct air injection (dia) intake that i'm going to use for an airbox, as well as a bmw maf housing coming that i am told is the appropriate size (part # 0280217502 for those interested, but i can't confirm until i have it in my hands) and have found a source for flexible, silicone, 3" ducting to connect the throttle body to the maf housing. it should look very professional when done, regardless of what airbox used (oem or aftermarket). note that the bmc universal airboxes come in two sizes - 70 mm and 85 mm; you want the 85 mm otherwise you are introducing a restriction upstream of your 76 mm maf housing.

one thing interesting to note that the plenum/intake runner connections are 3.5" in diameter on each side, so the air expands once it passes through the smaller throttle body. that leads me to believe two things: any intake pulse tuning must happen in the runners themselves and the plenum is just a ready source of air (ie, making it bigger won't reduce low-end power) and anything i can do to get the air to the plenum as efficiently as possible will be of benefit (bigger throttle body, bigger ducting, etc., to the limit set by the maf housing at 3"). this begs dialogue on the next step of intake mods - a larger maf housing. the 3.4 996 engines use a larger maf housing that you could use in conjuntion with the gt3 throttle body, etc., but modifications of the ecu would be required to recalibrate maf readings.

[The Radium King]

you're right; with a plenum that exits straight out from the intake i'll have to put in a larger radius curve further upstream as the intake runners themselves are canted to the left a bit. i'm just thinking that the further i put that from the 90 degree bend that happens at the actual plenum the better. the thought of the cayman plenum is attractive, however, as the resonsnace flap used on that plenum is now used on the dfi 911's also, so it must work (i think it is a low end/top end compromise, l however). further, as you note, it should be plug and play with a 987 airbox (which is a way better unit that the 986). i have a line on a cayman plenum if you are interested; pm me for details.

regarding the dme adapting to the larger maf housing i agree, BR has gobs more experence than most of the rest of us combined and says it works. he said in a different thread that he's going to try it on one of his cars and see if the air/fuel ratios adapt. i know i have read of people doing 3.4 swaps and not having the maf appropriate to their dme and having problems, so definitive results would be nice. it may be an issue of cumulative change, also; the dme can adapt to the maf change, and the dme can adapt to a higher flow intake, but both a higher flow intake (and exhaust, etc.) combined with the maf change change may exceed the learning capacity of the dme.

i'll tell you what: you do the cayman change, i'll do the 997 change, and we'll meet in the middle and compare (manitoba - geographic centre of canada - gimli motorsports park)!

[jaykay]

Alright a high noon drag race duel at Gimli! With any luck we won't get disturbed by any dead stick 767s

I was actually driving through Radium down into Nelson BC just a while ago...phew what drive still did get me primed enough for the out right speed of track driving the following week

Originally Posted by The Radium King

you're right; with a plenum that exits straight out from the intake i'll have to put in a larger radius curve further upstream as the intake runners themselves are canted to the left a bit. i'm just thinking that the further i put that from the 90 degree bend that happens at the actual plenum the better. the thought of the cayman plenum is attractive, however, as the resonsnace flap used on that plenum is now used on the dfi 911's also, so it must work (i think it is a low end/top end compromise, l however). further, as you note, it should be plug and play with a 987 airbox (which is a way better unit that the 986). i have a line on a cayman plenum if you are interested; pm me for details.

regarding the dme adapting to the larger maf housing i agree, BR has gobs more experence than most of the rest of us combined and says it works. he said in a different thread that he's going to try it on one of his cars and see if the air/fuel ratios adapt. i know i have read of people doing 3.4 swaps and not having the maf appropriate to their dme and having problems, so definitive results would be nice. it may be an issue of cumulative change, also; the dme can adapt to the maf change, and the dme can adapt to a higher flow intake, but both a higher flow intake (and exhaust, etc.) combined with the maf change change may exceed the learning capacity of the dme.

i'll tell you what: you do the cayman change, i'll do the 997 change, and we'll meet in the middle and compare (manitoba - geographic centre of canada - gimli motorsports park)!

[Johnny Danger]

So what's the final verdict ? Is it the cayman or 997 plenum that should be mated to the 76mm throttle body ?

[jaykay]

Mr. Danger

The face off has not gone down yet! We would need an air lift and snow ploughs!

Hmmm delving into this a bit. It seems the "tune" can be upset with addition/deletion of a distributor flap. The resonance flap us tuned to work with or without. I believe I would need a Caymanesque tune to make use of the sophisticated intake system.
I am not sure about the worth of this and can't do this myself. I think the distributor flap would certainly mitigate any low end losses associated with the larger TB.....just a guess. The engine experts might better answer this

It may be just spy vs spy at Gimli...as I will be likely running a big 3.8 diverter tee.
Shhhh don't tell Trk