Engine failure
 

My engine quit last week with no more warning than a loud ticking sound in the last mile or so of a 10-mile drive in town. The engine itself has only 25K miles on it - a remanufactured engine from Stuttgart because the body shop overheated the original engine during a collision repair in 2006. No external signs of a mishap, so the next step would be to pull the engine and start disassembly. Porsche NA isn't making any commitment until I spend probably upwards of $2K to investigate.

A quick internet search popped up intermediate shaft failures as a recurring problem in Boxster engines. Any experience with sudden engine shutdowns?

Any ideas how to get Porsche to accept some responsibility?

Many thanks.

It is impossible for anyone to post as much info as is waiting for you if you will search this forum. Good Luck. :)

There are 22 modes of failure
 

at last count by an M96 engine internals expert. None terribly probable. And no way of knowing much until someone who knows these engines examines the carcass.

Your replacement engine is out of warranty (2 years parts warranty in the US for replacements IIRC). Porsche may do something for you if a dealer goes to bat for you and if you are the original purchaser and have had services all done by the dealer. But it won't be much and it won't be under the warranty but rather goodwill so a friendly relationship with the dealer is your only chance.

25k on the engine since 2006 means it is pretty close to a low miles per year situation and those aren't great for the engine.

A list of your options with comments gathered over the years from various threads is at http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/what-can-you-do-if-your-engine-is-blown.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

A little more detail would be interesting to hear - did the engine stop while you were driving? Did you try to re-start it? Does it turn over or is it locked up?

Obviously, if the engine is locked up solid then these comments are moot;

Have you considered fuel pump failure, MAF failure, electrical failure, or any other problems that would result in an engine shutdown? CEL on? What codes?

Its not that I don't believe your diagnosis, its just that I'd hate to have anyone tear into a good engine only to find that the problem was elsewhere and did not require such a costly action.

I'm sure that many of us would like to hear any more specifics that you'd be willing to share.

Thanks and sorry for your situation.

Engine was ticking loudly for about a mile or so; the ticking rate seemed to go up and down with engine RPM's. I stopped the engine and restarted it after about 15 minutes with the same ticking. I drove it about 50 yards when it abruptly shut down, with no external indications or fluid leaks. I tried to restart it - it turned over very slowly once or twice but didn't fire up. A second try wouldn't even turn over. So yes, it's essentially locked up.

The dealer has been over the car with the basic diagnostics and hasn't found anything, Their next move would be to drop and disassemble. The service manager did acknowledge that IMS failures are a problem with that series engine.

Thanks for both thoughts and sympathies.

Thanks for the details. Sorry to hear that the next likely step is disassembly.

Here are a few thoughts on engine options as you go forward (from a previous post):

Option 1: Used Donor (eBay or equivalent) Engine This is the cheapest route - simply replace the engine you have with another used engine and do a 60K service to get the car back on the road. Future reliability is unknown and you may be right back where you are now (needing an engine replacement) in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. Obviously 10K miles would be a bummer and 100K miles would be awesome - but no one can say for sure which it will be. $3K-$6K.

Option 2: Refreshed Engine Some shops call them "refreshed" or even "certified pre-owned" and others may even call them "rebuilt" even though they are not really rebuilt. This option will generally consist of a used engine that has good compression as-is with maybe new timing chain/guides, a new water pump and/or alternator, new thermostat, and a 60K service. Be sure to check which exact parts are new/replaced because it varies. Again, you may be right back where you are now in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. $4K-$10K with higher priced engines having fewer original miles and/or add'l components replaced and/or coming from better known shops.

Option 3. Rebuilt/Remanufactured Engine A remanufactured engine where the engine is rebuilt to meet the original spec's, mostly using OEM parts. This is a classic rebuilt engine. Some engines may have updates like IMS/RMS but you'll need to specifically check. This option should give you ~100K miles of service but the reliability is (again) completely dependent on the engine builder and the extent and quality of the updates installed to address reliability issues. Likely to have a warranty of some kind so be sure to check the warranty details. $8K-$12K. Higher priced engines have more high quality parts/updates and/or come from better known shops.

Option 4. High End Fully Rebuilt The engine is rebuilt from the ground up with lots of new parts and all upgrades. Buyer may be able to specify some build details as desired. Engine is probably better than anything coming straight out of the factory brand new. Shops that do this work are top-end and their business relies on a good reputation. Should expect ~100K+ miles but check the warranty details. $12K-$22K. This will give you the most peace of mind (and maybe the highest performance) but it comes at a cost. Be aware that you may not get 100% of the engine cost back in resale value but that really depends on the buyer.

In summary, only you can decide which path is right for you and depends on how long you expect to keep the car, how much you love the car, how much money you are willing to spend, etc, etc.

Another option: If mine goes, it'll be a project car and I'll be looking for a 3.6 or 3.8.
:cheers:

Sounds like a classic IMS bearing failure...sorry to hear the troubles. :(

Another option would be to just sell the car as a roller and go for something else, either newer or another one of the era that you can have the IMS changed out on.

Chris

I appreciate the various post and advice. I haven't decided which way to go, but all of your thoughts are valuable. One thing to be sure everybody understands - the engine that seized up is a factory remanufactured engine installed in 2006. I don't know the history of that block, but it obviously came from and earlier model year.

Has Porsche improved the IMS in more recent models, or is this a lurking issue in all Boxter engines regardless of model year?

Sorry to hear about this. I believe it took them all the way up to 2009 to get away from the design that still had the potential for IMS failures, but don't quote me on that. Someone else may know better and chime in with a correction.

Should you end up with another Boxster, if you ever end up hearing weird noises from the engine again, don't try to restart it after you pull over and shut down...just get it towed.

If you're not strongly attached to that particular car, or if it depends more on what your budget and desires are, if you decide to cut your losses then it may be worthwhile to see if someone is looking for a car to drop an engine in or part it out and recoup as much as you can that way.

This dead engine not actually from 2006? Can you get the serial numbers from the engine. I just want to find out the exact year for the engine.

thanks,

This is kind of crazy idea but have you looked into putting in an electric engine?
I only say this because I just read that Tesla Motors are under contract from Toyota to provide them with EV engines for the RAV4. Apparently Tesla use cheaper but still very effective laptop 'type' lithium-ion batteries and not custom made units like on the Chevy Volt.

I know there was a shop that was turning Porsches into electric cars back three years ago when oil spiked to $150. I wonder if the prices have come down since then.


Factory Electric Boxster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO17SBE221o&feature=related

Serial number from remanned engine is M96/23AT65465746. I'll be interested to know any info that this S/N tells you.

To Perfectlap - A different suggestion, to be sure. Personally, though, if I don't put fuel in it and it doesn't sound like a Porsche, I'm not going to spend money on it.

threads like these really push me to get rid of my S. I always fear something disastrous will occur whenever i hop into the driver's seat.

+1 It's really hard to enjoy owning and driving these cars when in the back of your mind you're always thinking, "will my car be next (IMS failure or some other disaster)".

Electric
 

Not to hijack a thread but as far as the electric motor is concerned, I have a friend whom converted a 914 to electric by a guy in green springs Florida. Cost was alittle high, but never will this car use any oil or fuel. Pretty cool car. And talk about fast!! It was 0-60 in 2.8 sec. No kidding!!! No lag at all!

That's like saying "I saw a bicycle accident today so I am going to quit riding mine to work" which I do too. I would recommend that if you are scared of your car to sell it. There's nothing worse than living in fear. Only a very few Boxster's have a problem, and most have not been maintained or driven properly. In every forum, regarding every car, suv and vehicle there is rampant paranoia about something including catastrophic failures. Relax and drive......or not. It won't make any difference with what will happen.

No, it's like saying "I keep seeing bike accidents, like at least every couple of weeks. And the weird thing? There are never any other vehicles involved, the bike just sort of implodes on it's own, without warning. AND, they all involve the bicycle model that I'm riding, which are really kind of expensive bikes---ones that you'd expect, through superior engineering, NOT to have this kind of problem---that suddenly, in the blink of an eye, become nearly worthless."

BUT (having said that)...I do agree with the spirit of your post.

Do remember though, Frodo, that this car is the result of Porsche learning from Toyota how to cut costs.

The results, to name a few: Lokasil cylinder liners that can lead to oil/coolant intermix, remanufactured blocks going into vehicles coming fresh off the line, poorly reinforced frames/suspension mounts for the first model year, poorly designed IMS seal leading to failures, problematic RMS, D-Chunk, barely capable cooling system, crap shoot AOS, 3 to 5 chains all with the potential to fail, plastic impeller water pump, barely capable (in my opinion) oil cooler, and drain holes that seem to get plugged more than drain moisture.

I could go on, but my point is that this was the entry level vehicle to get people into the Porsche family. Popular though it did become, Porsche basically expected people to get this, own it for a while, and then want to upgrade to the flagship 911. And even the 911s from that era had some of these problems, too, especially the IMS failure.

For me, while I know all of these potential problems exist, I can't sit and be worried every second I operate the car. If it fails, I'll only be upset if it happened while I was sitting idle at a light rather than when I was actually enjoying making the car do what it does so well. I'm getting my money's worth, and if something major or catastrophic happens then it gives me an excuse to simply save up and make the car into something very awesome and much more bulletproof.

I think its more like:

I keep seeing these bicycle accidents where the rider falls off and hits his head on the concrete and the ambulance has to take him away on a stretcher.
I'm going to sell my bike!!!

See I ride with a bike helmet. No exceptions. Is the crash hat guaranteed to save my skull? Not entirely. But do I ride with whole hell of a lot less stress? Can I ride my bike and just enjoy the feeling of the wind at my back? Yes and Yes.

With the factory IMS as-is you are in a very very small chance of having an failure. Smaller still if the car has had regular miles put on it with regular oil intervals.
If the car sits, seals dry up, get brittle and the new owner comes along and starts racking up the miles: virbrations and stress on a compromised part lead to IMS failure.
If you have the IMS upgraded and take care of the car you are now in an even smaller chance of grenading engine. At that point I bet you probably have a similar likehood of a catastrophic failure as any BMW M3 owner or other German build.

in what way was the 996 substantially better as far as engine/cooling design than the 986? Seems to me that Porsche was trying to reduce costs across the board at different level of "cutting back" of course to maintain the margin. From what I understand the 986 was more expensive for Porsche to produce than the 996. The 986 was sold for nearly three years in Europe before the 996, borrwoing heavily from teh 986 parts bin, was unveilded in 1999. If buyers, according to Porsche, were being groomed for future 911 ownership then they were being set up to buy another cost-cutter because the 996 borrowed heavily from the 986 and not the other way around.

Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding your question or maybe where it's coming from, I don't believe I said that the cooling system on the 996 was superior to the 986 in any way. All I made a point of is that the cooling system for the 986 barely gets the job done.

By no means am I saying that the 996 is better than the 986, especially not because it borrows parts, and not disagreeing with anything that you've stated, because you are correct. The 996 is certainly plagued with its own problems as I learn from what I read as I learn more about these cars. However, how many average Porsche consumers (read, not the wrench turners and knowledge seeking folks who frequent a forum such as this) with the disposable income to drop six figures on a car think in that way? I think we know that most of them think the more expensive car's simply got to be the better one (and then proceed to complain about how their car looks just like the budget car when you see it from the front). While that logic shouldn't be flawed, it is, because Porsche was indeed cutting costs wherever it could. You're right, they were setting up their buyers, but how many of those buyers really knew that? Most of them probably followed their 15,000 mile oil change intervals like they were told and would be looking to "upgrade" to a 911 some day, provided they weren't one of the unfortunate IMS failure sufferers.

Yes, the two cars were essentially the same from the doors forward for a period. If you were Porsche, why not do it that way? The important parts that made up the differences between the two were behind that, so why not save the company some money like they desperately needed to do to back then? It got them back on their feet enough to start differentiating between the two and bring about a fleet of over a half dozen vehicles for their buyers to choose from, running a whole gamut of 5-to-6 figure price ranges.

I guess I can see how my original post could be misunderstood as kind of saying that the 996 was of better quality than the 986, but that wasn't really my statement. Again, while the logic may seem flawed, I do feel that Porsche expected that their customers would enjoy their Boxster experience and come running back in to trade up in a few years to the only other model in the lineup (at that time) that wasn't fading out of existence, and that just had to be even better for another $30k+

I think his point was, the engine problem is not exclusive to the Boxster, and it's lower price. The 911 had the same design flaw, and resultant failures.

In any case, while Porsche may have picked up a few pointers from Toyota on cost-cutting, they seem to have dozed through the lesson on reliability. And the one on keeping customers happy when bad things happen to their vehicles waaaay before they should.

I know Toyota would love (just as much as the Porsche corporate types) for Corolla buyers to quickly develop the itch to upgrade to the Avalon. But you know what? Corollas and Camrys will go 200k miles with the best of them, typically without a lot of expensive repairs along the way. Oh well, I guess with the 986 (and other P-cars) it’s a package deal, take the bad with the good, all in the nature of owning a sports car. Intuitively, I probably knew that when I picked up mine…

there have not been any blown motor post up here recently . one of a 100,000 that are on the road. i went to meet my brother an hour ago, 3 miles down the road . i saw 3 986 cars round trip. guys , you really don't need to panic. i does happen but if you take care of your car and drive it properly i would not worry about .

Sorry this thread has drifted so far off your topic. I spent the day with a PCNA district service manager while working a new model launch & he received several calls from dealership service managers asking for his OK to do goodwill warrantys. In every case his 1st question was did the customer always have the Porsche serviced at authorized dealers? I hope this helps with your discions.

Well...buckstr might argue with you on that one, at least once he gets a definitive diagnosis (post-mortem?). Hopefully, his is not one of the DOA engines. In any case, I don't think all that many of us here are in an actual 'panic'. It's more of a nagging concern of what could happen, and the impact it would have on our checking accounts. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the IMS retrofit in the next few months, when I have the clutch done. In the meantime? I haven't stopped driving my Boxster...not by a long shot. :D

" It is better to have loved and lost, than to never loved at all"

I used to fear the reaper, now I know that I've done the maintainence and keep an eye out for signs of trouble, but I drive it every chance I get.

Well, there ya' go...my philosophy exactly. Each and every time I hit 4500 RPM I totally forget about IMS issues!!! :D

i don't think this guy drove his car enough . the motor was replaced almost 6 years ago . it does suck that this **************** happens but you need to drive these cars thats what they were meant for. i have seen quite a few boxsters and early 996s with 150k on them for sale recently. with my luck mine will be the one that goes kaboom ! at least i know i drive it every chance i get. I have a 2010 Evo Gsr it just sits in my garage 4700 miles on it, my boxster is just such a better car . i told my wife i want to get rid of the evo and pick up a 3.4 996 with an aero kit. so if one goes boom i got the other. obviously , she thinks i'm nuts .

Hey, I say Go For It. And? Keep me in mind----I got a wife, too, sooo...IF you win out on this one, PLEASE give me some pointers on strategy. I'd be forever indebted. :D

it's not going well , i must say. i told her she can have the evo .

And that didn't do it??? Wow...she be a tough one. Sounds like you got a battle on your hands. Give it your best shot. Stick to your guns. Can't be lettin' these women trample all over our innermost desires, automotively-speaking. Persevere. And...let us know how it works out.

She probably realizes it's not generally "best" to have more vehicles than necessary. Too much sitting around for most of them. Too much insurance. Too much maintenance/tires.... Too much depreciation. Probably better to get what you need/want then when the situation changes, get something else.

So rational, so pragmatic...where's your sense of adventure??? Pay no attention to him jacabean !

Any updates from the original poster? :confused:

The PCNA service manager asking if the car was serviced at a Porsche dealer seems ironic.

1-They were recommending oil change intervals that made the problem worse.
2-They were using oil (M1) that at some point changed for the worse.
3-They probably never inspected the oil filter for the cracked pepper size seal fragments.
4-They never advised their Boxster/996 owners that they should be putting a minimum number of miles on their cars per month to maintain proper IMS bearing lubrication.
5-They never informed the Boxster/996 owners that there was an issue whose cause had not been fully determined so they should take steps to address 1 - 4 above in accordance with the 'precautionary principle'.

What I'm saying is that you'd probably have been BETTER off with an indy Porsche specialist, or a well-informed and unconflicted specialist, leading up to the IMS failure.
Or stated another way, you were WORSE off going to the dealer for service.
Actually you may not have had the failure to begin with if you opted for the specialist over the dealer.

Since you mentioned this it got me wondering if anyone has determined a minimum monthly/annual mileage for the car's well-being? I haven't seen anything on here or elsewhere with a figure. Got one? :)

That might be tough to figure out since most people own another car so the Boxster never really has a predictable pattern. One guy might drive the car 10K a year but usually on long trips with weeks at a time of the car sitting dry. Another guy might have very low mileage but makes frequent local trips. I'm pretty sure you'd want the car with low miles that was put through the gears with more frequency. Yet conventional wisdom would make the buyer skeptical about buying a low mileage car.
Using total miles to pinponit the highest likelyhood of a IMS failure can be misleading.
The data logger would have to ask the driver some questions about how frequently the car was drive, for example how often gas fill ups were needed. Logic being a guy who only gassed up the car once a month is a red flag.

Maybe its not so much mileage but time. As in the dealer should tell the owner "be sure to put at least 60 minutes on the car every week and no you can't do the whole month's time at at once, that defeats the purpose".

Either way that's definitely a question for the Flat6 Innovations guys.

i honestly think it's all a crap shoot. a well maintained , driven car seems to be the way to go . the porsche gods control the whole ims thing .