Tiptronic fluid color

[Wamiq]

I have a 2002 Boxster. The tiptronic transmission was rebuilt. After driving it for only 66 miles, the tiptronic decided on its own to downshift from 5th to 4th and the speed went down from 70 mph to 50 mph. I pulled over to the road side (HWY 580 East, by Livermore, Ca.) and waited for 5 minutes and decided to get back on the road. When I went up to 60 mph, a high pitch whining noise, followed by a boom noise and black smoke trail appeared. Immediately, I pulled over to the side and saw a whole lot of fluid gushing out. I had the car towed to a nearby garage/shop and had it hoisted. The mechanic took off the cover and found that the differential (?) on the right side (looking from the back side) had a hole/crack. That was the boom I heard. The fluid color was like light barley color. I thought that the tiptronic fluid per Porsche spec, is supposed to be light pink (fresh/new) and over the time, the color changes to darker. Can someone please tell me if wrong type of tiptronic fluid was used or the differential is totally separate from the tiptronic and has its own fluid? Many thanks in advance

[Lil bastard]

The diff has it's own fluid - Hypoid gear oil.

The tranny fluid s/b red colored.

Despite several brands claiming compatability, the ONLY fluid recommeded by both Porsche and ZF Getrieb (the Mfr. of the 5HP19 transmission - aka Tiptronic) is ESSO LT 71141.

If the rebuilder used ANYTHING other than the ESSO fluid, you have a valid gripe.

Cheers!

[Wamiq]

Thanks Lil B. If possible, would you happen to have the web link to Porsche website (or ESSO website), where they specifically mention that the fluid has to be ESSO? I need to build up information bank before I contact the transmission shop plus the Porsche dealer. Thanks.

[jcb986]

My wonder is why the transmission needed to be rebuilt. The TIP is a very well built transmission. Only running it low on fluid or someone putting in the wrong fluid would make them fail. Also, the differential is separate to the trans, but also has the be separated during a rebuild. Sounds like they didn't get the diff. put back together correctly. Only a experienced shop that knows the TIP should ever do a rebuild. Finally note, you can buy a used/salvaged TIP from $1500 to $2500. Hope you didn't drop a bundle on a rebuild.

[Wamiq]

Okay. Sorry for this lengthy blog/note … and here is the whole story. My daughter went to Dominican University of California at San Rafael, on 65% scholarship (of the total cost). She was to study pre-med. As a gift for her success, we let her use my Porsche Boxster (2002). After returning to school from a home visit towards the end of November 2008, she called me and told me that the car was showing some engine problems, hesitation. So, I went up the next Saturday to take care of the issue. We drove the Boxster (please keep in mind the word "drove") to Sonnen Porsche (SP). Gary Wright was present that Saturday and was nice to us and took the car in for service/repair and the charges would be US $ 180. I told Gary that we were not in any hurry as I was from San Diego. After a week to 10 days, Gary called me and told me that the automatic transmission was "completely" shot ... they found that there was NO transmission fluid in the transmission!! I asked Gary if there was any leakage or crack on the transmission casing. Gary replied that they did not find any leakage or crack(s). [Question for you: How could my daughter drive from San Diego to the bay area, almost 600 miles, with no transmission fluid?] To fix the transmission, it would take $ 11K. I told him that I was not prepared for such expense at that time and that I would be making a trip back to the bay area towards the end of January 2009 and would pick up (tow) the car. Gary talked to his boss "Richard Runk", the service manager, and got back to me and told me that it was okay ... as no harm was done. I was late by a week and I went along with my daughter to Sonnen Porsche on first Saturday of February 2009. The service was closed and the sales were open. The wonderful people from sales force at SP started to laugh at us (my daughter and me) and told us that "Richard", the service manager had auctioned of my car at a DMV lien sale, about 10 days prior (from the day we stopped by to pick up the car). Supposedly, Richard has sent us a notice of lien sale via US mail, something that we never received, though SP has my street address on their intake paper work for the Boxster service inspection!! The car is worth far more than $180 (the service inspection cost). My daughter was present when I was talking to the sales associates. Upon hearing the news from the SP sales people, she had a mental break down. She had to drop out during second semester at Dominican University. She also lost her scholarship, etc. For the next 6 to 8 months, our family had to go through mental turmoil from medically treating (psychiatric and counseling) our daughter, which is still continuing. I tried in vain, called several different times, including leaving voice mail, Sonnen Motors PR hand written (recorded) note/message for Peter Sonnen (owner), their General Manager for overall Sonnen Motors (group). I never received any return courtesy call(s).

After I returned from SP to San Diego, I went to local DMV office in Poway and they suggested that I place a “Courtesy Stop for 30 days” of lien sale and ultimately put a restraining order from the San Diego Superior Court on the DMV to stop the lien sale permanently. In the meantime SP without realizing that I could do all of these, they went ahead and repaired the tiptronic transmission, with the hope that Richard would be able to sell the car at a dirt cheap price though the lien sale, and perhaps a relative of Richard could buy the car.

I contacted the Bureau of Automotive Repairs of California (BAR) and filed a complaint on SP. BAR’s enforcing division took up my complaint and two of their agents went after SP. In SP’s record it clearly showed that I never authorized SP to do any further work, except for the initial service check. Per BAR, SP was forced to return the Boxster to me at no charge. Therefore, the repair on tiptronic and other work (including painting the car) was at SP’s cost. Also, SP could not produce any US mail paper work showing that Richard (the ex-service manager, who was fired for trying to swindle my car) sent notice of lien sale to me. Finally, I was able to set a date (April 16, 2010) with SP to pick up my car. Since the rebuilt of the tiptronic in February 2009 (by a local transmission shop near SP), the car has been sitting at SP’s lot and was not driven till April 16, 2010.
This tiptronic incident happened on April 16, 2010 after I picked up the car and was heading back to San Diego.

One way or other, I do need a used tiptronic for the 2002 Boxster and any one in the forum can suggest a source to get it at a reasonable price, will be very much appreciated. Thanks.

[Lil bastard]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I have listed several links to info about the ZF transmission. I believe there is a disclaimer on the proper fliod in the fluid charts and some others. I'll have to check my database to get the actual document specifically cautioning against using anything but the ESSO fluid, but I know the lube chart linked here states essentially the same thing.

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_InteroeleV2_manager/Work/2010-04-01/TE-ML%2011_en0700.pdf

http://www.zftranspart.com/index.php?p=product&id=54&parent=28

http://www.zf.com/na/content/en/import/zf_na/startseite/sso/passenger_car_light_truck/car_driveline/lubrication_and_oil_requirements/Lubrication_and_Oil_Requirements.html

Cheers!

[jcb986]

Sorry for the mess...and it started with a crooked manager. No fluid, no visible leaks and that's a lot fluid...must have been the invisible type. Listen, the is nothing wrong with a used transmission, they usually come from cars that were dismantled because they were totaled and could not be repaired. You need the year, make , model and engine size. Here's one from a dismantler in GA. And, I bet you will be able to find several in CA. When you purchase one be sure that all the seals are replaced before being installed.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-986-Boxster-S-Tiptronic-Automatic-Transmission_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27aa6d150b QQitemZ170363000075QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPar tsQ5fAccessories

[Wamiq]

Thank you Lil B and jcb986. I contacted LA Dismantler and they are helping me look for a used TIP.

jcb986: In order to replace all the seals, would that be refurbishing the TIP? Sonnen Porsche showed the statement from the tranny shop that a kit (with seals) were used to re-do my TIP. Either they used non-spec oil or the oil level was very low, which caused it to blow. I wonder where from the high pitch whinning noise was generated? Thanks.

[Wamiq]

For the experts in this forum:
1.) I need to know how many different tranny oil is filled (chamber to chamber) in the Boxster TIP or is it just one oil type (like ESSO), that covers the chamber containing the gears and also the differential?
2.) Does the gear section have different oil than differential?
3.) What quantity (amount in oz. or litre) of tranny oil used in the Boxster TIP? Quantity for gear chamber and quantity for differential.

Thanks.

[jcb986]

If the Porsche Dealer rebuilt the trans and I doubted it.
Items needed for a TIP Service.
1) TRANSMISSION OIL PENTOSIN ATF 20 LITERS 999 917 547 00
2) TRANSMISSION OIL HYPOID 80-90 1 LITER 999 917 545 00
3) OIL SUMP GASKET 986 397 016 00
4) OIL FILTER 986 307 403 0

This is what you need for a TIP service. The transfer case has it's on oil, a 90 weight gear lube and usually take less than 1 liter. The transmission takes a lot of oil, but there is a procedure on how it is done. After the old oil is drain and the pan dropped, the oil filter is replaced inside the transmission, a visible inspection is made for any metal shavings or debris pointing to problem. After that the pan is replace with a new gasket and torqued to specs. The tech then fills the transmission until oil runs out the fill hole. The engine is then started and the transmission is allowed to warm up. The internal transmission temperature is monitored until it reaches a certain temperature, then more oil is put into it until it overflows. The tech will then run the transmission through several gears and do a final top off.

Now if you get a pre-owned TIP. You will need to do the service and replace front and rear seals and axles seals. It's much easier with the trans out to take care of this.

[Wamiq]

Thanks jcb986. I now need to find a used TIP in Ca area (even outside Ca). I also found the name of a shop (SAS German Auto) in Pleasanton, who strictly work on Porsche. On Monday I will contact them and from there I will need to figure out the logistics. Again, thanks for the TIP oil info.

[jcb986]

Glad I could help. Also discuss the torque converter with your tech, you may need to have it flushed or replaced. When the trans went, the debris is also pushed into the converter. See if you can get a converter with the TIP. Rather be safe than sorry.

[Wamiq]

Hi Jcb986, Lil bastard and other valued members,

It has been almost more than a year since I am posting my continued response. Finally, I am getting the Boxster TIP fixed (or rather replace the TIP). I found a used TIP with 35K on it for $2250. I wanted to go to a Porsche dealership to have them do the work. Porsche dealership wanted $2400 for the job (remove the old one, put in the new one, fill it with fluid, etc.). Several others suggested a small Porsche shop, “Performance Independent Porsche”, at El Cajon. The final cost will be around $1000. Hopefully, soon I will be back on the road with the Boxster. Next project will be to get the Carrera back on the road. [Still, Sonnen Porsche is one to watch out.] TTL.

BR,
Wamiq