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Old 06-20-2011, 06:15 PM   #1
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IMS Guardian Pre-order

Didn't see this anywhere on the forum yet, but Jake's figured out how to give us boxster owners a heads-up when our IMS is about to go and prevent a catastrophic motor event.

http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop/product.php?productid=16285&cat=399&page=1

If this is being discussed elsewhere here, forgive me for reposting. Evidently, it's been discussed on a 27 page thread over on rennlist.

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Old 06-20-2011, 06:18 PM   #2
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Gotta be kidding me.....
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:49 PM   #3
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there was some early discussion during march in this thread

The latest IMS loss. A true classic failure
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:52 PM   #4
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I tried your link but Norton blocked it.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:01 AM   #5
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Got mine ordered.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:59 AM   #6
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Exactly how does this gizmo work?
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:13 AM   #7
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agreed....no info on how it works on his site...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour
Exactly how does this gizmo work?

Interesting concept but I would like to have some more details on how it works before paying the ~400 asking price. I really would like to know how much warning it gives you...30 seconds? 30 miles? and what the "expected" success rate might be at giving you an adequate amount of time to take action.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:52 AM   #8
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$400 to tell you to buy a $600 bearing seems kind of redundant.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:56 AM   #9
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Jake is keeping the technology used under wraps until the device officially debuts in July.
Some details:
The device performs a self test when the engine is started to verify that it is functioning.
If it detects 'something' while running a warning light illuminates and a buzzer sounds. Depending on what is detected you may drive for a short distance or you might have to call a tow truck.
A 24hr phone hot-line is available to advise on the severity of the problem.
Installation takes less than 2 hours with just a couple of simple tools.
The switch/light is located in one of the empty switch locations on the center stack.
If a failure is detected that saves the engine Jake will provide a 150% credit of the purchase price towards an IMSB replacement done at his shop.

Many have sent Jake a PM on Rennlist trying to guess how it works. Apparently, the first correct guess gets a free one.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
$400 to tell you to buy a $600 bearing seems kind of redundant.
$600 is more like ~$2000 after factoring in installation cost. But you're right if someone has the conscience to spend $400 on that you might as well get it fixed.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:34 AM   #11
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Apparently, there's a 150% credit of the Guardian if you use Flat Six to replace your IMS or motor after you purchase and install the thing. So, a $400 purchase now is a $600 credit later... if you can get your car to a suburb of Atlanta. That's a $800 cost for me from Houston to have my car towed there...
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour
Apparently, there's a 150% credit of the Guardian if you use Flat Six to replace your IMS or motor after you purchase and install the thing. So, a $400 purchase now is a $600 credit later... if you can get your car to a suburb of Atlanta. That's a $800 cost for me from Houston to have my car towed there...
Exactly, if the cost of the technology required to detect impending failure is so close to the solution, and you're going to have to get it replaced eventually any way, just replace it to begin with and be done with it.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue2000s
Exactly, if the cost of the technology required to detect impending failure is so close to the solution, and you're going to have to get it replaced eventually any way, just replace it to begin with and be done with it.
I'll have to +1 that, I think it makes more sense to just get the retrofit done instead of waiting until your car is screaming at you to get it done.

Along with that, what if your bearing/shaft is already on its way out and you perform this modification. Is it immediately going to sense the issues or will it have to wait to see it get even more serious? I guess we'll have to wait for more details next month.

I'm certainly not trying to shut down Jake's products, I'm actually getting the retrofit done soon. It's just that when I see something like this, to me it's like flying circles around the tanker until you hit bingo fuel instead of just fueling up when you reach the tanker. Why tempt fate?
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:49 AM   #14
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At least this will cut down on the amount of hand holding that goes on when the new Boxster owner inevitably learns of the frailties inherent in their new investment/toy.

So it is now...

Spend $400 for a warning light
Spend $800 and DIY
Spend a few grand and let Jake do it for you.
Spend nothing and drive your car knowing that all things in life are temporary and that the 105k on the odo is telling you to not sweat the little things.

The idea is good the "Hot line" is a bad idea, makes the normal service seem second rate although I can understand the profit motive.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:41 PM   #15
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I guessed that this is some form of vibration monitor as used by many maintenance engineers for diagnosing critical bearings on some (very) expensive machinery. It has been used for many years in preventative maintenance and is very cost affective when checking even slight anomolies in rotating machinery.
Of course, I could be wrong (again).
My question is will you still need the Guardian if you have already fitted the upgraded IMS assembly considering that no failures of the ceramic bearing have been reported by either Flat 6 or LN Engineering??
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tinker
I guessed that this is some form of vibration monitor as used by many maintenance engineers for diagnosing critical bearings on some (very) expensive machinery. It has been used for many years in preventative maintenance and is very cost affective when checking even slight anomolies in rotating machinery.
Of course, I could be wrong (again).
My question is will you still need the Guardian if you have already fitted the upgraded IMS assembly considering that no failures of the ceramic bearing have been reported by either Flat 6 or LN Engineering??

It also probably has a sensor that senses cam timing. Variations in cam timing are also a sign the IMS is on its way out.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:48 PM   #17
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Please PM your guesses to me and if you hit the nail on the head and you will be given a unit... Too bad you guys started guessing out loud.

With the diminishing values of the M96 powered cars, more and more people can't justify the expense of an IMSR..

Also, the IMSR costs a lot more than the bearing, don't forget that installation of the IMSR is a 12 hour job+. The procedure costs a minimum of 1500 bucks, even from the shops that are starving to death and doing the work cheaper than they should be (and generally half ass doing it) just to stay afloat. Charles and I should have employed minimum costs for doing these procedures to all dealers, because the price wars are taking away from the technology.

The IMS Guardian can be installed as a stand alone system in less than 1.5 hours as a DIY. The integration into the dash is seamless, you can't even tell the system is installed. The cst of the IMSG is exactly 389.00 for the DIY installer, no shop labor, inconvenience or hassles. The system provides instant sense of security for the cost of admission, plus 1.5 hours of install time with the DIY DVD that is included for free.

See this video on the IMS Guardian teaser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35o5r1HUMuI

The system was primarily developed for early warnings of IMS failures, but it will also alert the driver of 10 more internal engine related failures that can be just as damaging as an IMSBF.

The system can bes used in parallel with an IMS Retrofit, in fact we are carrying out testing right now with one vehicle that has an IMSR with the LN Ceramic Bearing. we are not employing the system to monitor that IMS bearing, but more to collect data from the retrofitted engine concerning operational characteristics of the system.

Don't look at the cost of the IMS bearinga nd the cost of the IMS Guardian as a comparative. Look more at the fact that the IMS Guardian retails for 389.95 and can be installed as a DIY in less than 1.5 hours with only a Leatherman multi-tool and one adjustable wrench. The system is that simple, I can now install one start to finish in 30 minutes flat, try that with an IMSR.

If you guys want to play the guessing game like we did on Rennlist, we can do that.. Delete your guesses here and PM them to me. Anyone who guesses correct will get a free system as long as the guess is PM'd to us. We will let the winners know in late July when we unveil the system in a huge ad campaign. Excellence will be doing a Tech Forum on the technology very soon, but we haven't even divulged to them how it works!

Oh, and you won't even find anything about this on our website. I have been trying to perfect it for 3 years and we are finally done.

As far as the Hotline goes: The purchase of the Hotline gives the driver of the IMSG equipped vehicle a lifeline directly to Flat 6 Innovations 24-7/365. Guess who answers that line? Me. Thats priceless when one needs it on the side of the road at 0300 on a Sunday with zero help. Those who do not purchase the hotline will have a reference card that will tell them what should occur if they receive an IMS Alert. All units will be serialized for ID and authenticity, the Hotline serialized units will have a door jamb decal with the hotline phone number and a unique serial number, without that unique serial number we will not offer assistance if an IMS Alert occurs, the reference card would be utilized for this.

Lots has gone into EVERY aspect of this, making it simple and effective with seamless integration into the car was a royal ******************** to carry out.
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Last edited by Jake Raby; 06-21-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:53 PM   #18
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Do we have any type of incidence or prevalence data on failure rates? We're talking about motors that are well aged at this point. You can weigh $400 against the likelihood of failure with that data and make an informed decision - without true failure data, we have no idea if this is a worthwhile investment. The online community tends to amplify problem incidence as well...

If this has happened to 3-5% of 1999 cars, I wouldn't consider it a worthwhile investment at a 20 to 1 hedge. If it's 20%, then mebbe.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:09 PM   #19
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Give up on the fsilure rates.. They didn't matter to the three owners that had a death certificate issued from our facility for their car this week.

The failure rates can't be accurately summed, because ACCURATE portions of the equation are impossible to source. No one knows exactly how many cars were built, no one knows how many failed under warranty and no one knows what killed thousands of them that were replaced over the years.

I will tell you now that EARLY DETECTION and WARNING would have saved all 3 of the cars that came to my facility this week from all acorss the country with engine failures. One of these was barely incapable of being saved by our processes, literally minutes cost this guy 15K+. People will not listen when we say STOP and do not drive the car at all when any symptom occurs.

The IMSG alerts the driver before any other symptoms are noted, that extra bit of time is the key to saving an engine through a procedure or spending 15K.

45,000 dollars worth of failures could have been saved in these 3 cars from less than 1600.00 worth of IMSG systems being employed. All 3 of these failures would have been easily detected by the IMSG, undoubtedly. Want num bers? These are the ones that count.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:58 PM   #20
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Jake,

That was undoubtedly the most salesy post I've ever seen from you - and you've been an awesome source of info for the forum and broader community, besides the work you do and products you drive.

You use 3 failed cars as a case study with no evidence that your device would have prevented them besides the assertion. Fine - I can live with that.

But you say $45k worth of damage could've been saved by $1600 worth of parts and that those are the numbers that count. Huh? That's true if the failure rate is 1 to 1.

If the failure rate is 20 to 1, then $12,000 worth of IMSG systems need to be employed for each $15,000 worth of work saved within the community (assuming $600 for the IMSG with installation). The cost to the community is near parity with the cost of fixing the catastrophe in that situation.

I make decisions based upon rational analysis and not fear-mongering done by those who would profit from it. I don't care about the early cars that failed - I do care about how often it occurs today. I wish that information was available to me.

I have no clear indication of failure ratesand one of the people most in a place to sum up such information, you, has basically said "Failure rates are meaningless. Install my part". This does not pass my "i'm being scammed" detector. I'm not even saying you are scamming people - I am simply saying that your last post really does you a disservice.

My car is worth maybe $12k. With a blown engine, maybe $3-4k. My risk is $9k - for something that costs $2k+ to fix, $400+ to observe, and affects maybe 10% of the population.

I might eat crow one day, absolutely, but I do so with the knowledge that I made a rational choice based upon the best information I had available at the time.

Edit: oh, and if that information changes, I'll be happy to re-evaluate and potentially use your products. I have no dog in this fight besides trying to make a good decision for my own purposes.

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Last edited by JoeFromPA; 06-21-2011 at 08:04 PM.
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