987 Oil Changes

[eslai]

(Hmm, does it bother you guys to have 987 owners on 986forum.com? I just now thought of that...)

Okay, so I've gone through and read a bit about your opinions on the 15,000 mile oil change interval. For the most part you all think it's crazy, as did I when the dealer said the same to me.

Well, actually, the 987 specifies 20,000 miles!

The dealer threw in lifetime oil and filter changes (wow, such a commitment!!) but that means of course, I have to wait the 20,000 miles for that service.

I'm not adverse to changing my own oil (although the dealer also told me that to get the tech manuals on this car would cost thousands of dollars, as it's a whole library of books...) but if I don't have to, I won't.

So what say y'all? Oil change at 7500? 10,000? 3,000?

[PAH]

Originally Posted by eslai

(Hmm, does it bother you guys to have 987 owners on 986forum.com? I just now thought of that...)

Not at all. Most (although not all, I'm sure) 986 owners here would love a 987 instead, so we are really interested (well, I am anyway) to hear about your new car!

[Brucelee]

The Forum is open to ALL Porsche owners, past, present and future (or just thinking about it!),

RE: Oil changes, if it were me, I would cut the fact rec in half and settle at 10K or one year, whichever comes first.

Be sure to use a quality syn and change the filter each time.

You DON"T need a manual to figure out how to do the oil change.

And BTW-when is someone going to bring out an aftermarket dipstick for the 987?

Welcome aboard and best of luck!

[RandallNeighbour]

How ya gonna install it? Drill a hole through the cap they've installed where the old one was and put a tube in there down to the sump? Sounds like a very expensive procedure that isn't going to hit the aftermarket guys at all.

Toolpants (Jeff) says he doesn't use his physical dip stick any longer and always goes by the dash display. I can't believe this though. Here's why:

The other night, a buddy asked me to run him to the pharmacy so we took off in my boxster. While waiting for him in the parking lot, engine hot and up to temp, I turned it off and then back on to the acc. for the dash lights to see what the oil level was. It registered very low, just one bar above the bottom line.

Took my buddy home and went to my house and into the garage and repeated the process. Second time it showed the level at one bar below the top line! So I went to the dip stick and it read full.

I truly have no idea which one to believe or use these days. I just keep watching it considering I have a small oil leak on the driver's side cam cover gasket.

[Brucelee]

I really don't know what would be involved in adding a dipstick but think it would be quite involved.

On the flip side, I would NOT trust German electronics on something as critical as oil level. Call me old fashioned.

Now, if it were Japanese electronics, I might be more comforted.

Shoot, I don't like drive by wire either.

Man, do I feel old!

[YellowJacket]

Haha, I hate drive-by-wire, too! And I hate the idea of solely electronic monitoring of oil level as mine is quite finicky as it is.

Regarding the factory-suggested oil change interval, I will continue to do 15k oil changes on my car. Porsche does not stand to benefit from hundreds of thousands of engine failures, so they would not come up with a policy that wasn't beneficial. Besides, they're one of MANY companies who is extending oil change intervals.

Additionally, synthetic does not break down like oil did in the past. I have heard stories of experiments where cars were run 200k miles with no oil change, and the synthetic was tested afterward, demonstrating NO thermal breakdown or reduced lubricating capacity. Not to mention it was as clean as new.

[xavier405]

Its basically a leap of faith that the entire automotive industry is asking us to take. So much more electronics is coming in to play, and it is governing critical systems. But hasn't it always? Fuel injection, variable timing, active suspension... we take these for granted. Maybe some of these electronics were unreliable back in the 70s, but eventually they improve to the point that we don' t notice them.

An oil level sensor? I would imagine that is a pretty simple component. There could even be several redundant oil level sensors without much cost.

I admit this is speculation and as an engineer I would really love to see some test data and reliability numbers. A rocket engine has hundreds of critical components, each with a known failure mode, and an estimated mean time between failures (MTBF). But the auto industry doesn't share this data with the public, in fact I'm not sure it even exists. But there is much improvement in the overall quality of electronics in the past 30 years, it seems to me!

I suppose the cautious of us could take a digital photo of the oil level indicator, with a time stamp, and then use that as evidence to the dealer in case of a future failure! Fight technology with technology!

[Brucelee]

"Additionally, synthetic does not break down like oil did in the past. I have heard stories of experiments where cars were run 200k miles with no oil change, and the synthetic was tested afterward, demonstrating NO thermal breakdown or reduced lubricating capacity. Not to mention it was as clean as new."

I think you have a few facts wrong here. The 200K stories are when using synthetics at regular oil change intervals. The data is clear that synthetics are superior to DINO in everyway. However, even AMSOIL recommends a MAX of 25K on their oil. I use Mobil 1 in my Buell and even at 2500 mile changes, I can tell you that the oil is NOT clean as new. That is a myth.

Ditto-Red Line and AMSOIL. The DOES get dirty, however, their is no disputing that SYN is good stuff.



RE: the 7500, I simply don't feel OK on the 20K but it is my personal preference more than anything. However, you should know that Porsche replaces more than their fair share of engines. And if you are out of warranty, why chance the engine going south over the cost of an oil change?

[RandallNeighbour]

If I am not mistaken the job of the oil is twofold... lubricate the engine and remove contaminants such as carbon build up, etc. So, oil should get dirty if the detergents within it are doing their job as they should. I love the prolonged viscosity of synthentic oil though... but with my oil leak, I rarely have to worry about viscosity breakdown as the car gets a fresh cup of oil once a month.

I gotta get that fixed. The smell of burning oil makes me angry every time I get out of my boxster after a satisfying drive.

[Ronzi]

This is an uninformed personal opinion, but I don't think oil loses its lubricating properties over time as much as it is that the oil becomes contaminated.
The size of the oil reservoir could also be a factor, i.e. 9+ quarts of the stuff, so the contaminants get dispersed throughout a larger quantity of oil. Plus, maybe the filtration systems are better today, also leading to longer change intervals.
Nevertheless, the oil change interval on my Boxster was about 6k the first go-round and will probably be about the same this next time. The one year interval will arrive long before the 15k miles.
The '81 911SC I had before the Box usually had the oil changed at a one year interval, and the mileage varied between a low of about 800 miles (!) to a high of maybe 7,000, and the Porsche-trained wrench I took it to grumped about that one.
The night after I bought that SC I was looking through the maintenance documents, and ran across one oil change bill with the notation in large block letters "MUST CHECK OIL REGULARLY. OIL 7 QUARTS LOW!" An oil change on that car took about 11 quarts, plus maybe another couple of quarts in the oil cooler and the lines running up to the loop cooler in the front fender, so the total system had maybe 13 qts. or so.
I suffered a serious case of buyer's remorse after seeing that bill, plus another one that noted a 6qt low condition at another change. However, I owned the car for 7 years and the engine was none the worse for it's low-oil experience. It is hard to hurt those 3-liter motors, and there is a benefit to a large oil capacity and a dry sump system.

[eslai]

Yeah, all the info here jibes well with what I know about oil. In my Eclipse, since it's turbocharged there's a lot of blow-by in the cylinders. The oil fouls extremely fast with carbon particles and gas. You can pull out the dipstick after 1500 miles, take a whiff and smell gasoline.

I change my oil on the Eclipse every 3000 miles. When I drain the Mobil 1, it comes out pitch black. If I do the same on my sister's Miata at 5000 miles, you can still see through the oil.

So, seeing as how this is both naturally aspirated and dry-sumped, I expect the oil to last longer. I've also seen many oil studied touting 20,000-mile oil changes but it makes me nervous. The dealership told me to use the electronic gauge and when it dips to the low mark, add a quart.

Oh and Randall, the dealer told me that due to natural expansion of the oil when the engine is hot, versus when it's cold, you'll get different readings on the oil gauge. He said I should just check the oil level when the car is cold and go by that.

Thanks for the warm welcome, guys.

[YellowJacket]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I think you have a few facts wrong here. The 200K stories are when using synthetics at regular oil change intervals. The data is clear that synthetics are superior to DINO in everyway. However, even AMSOIL recommends a MAX of 25K on their oil. I use Mobil 1 in my Buell and even at 2500 mile changes, I can tell you that the oil is NOT clean as new. That is a myth.

Ditto-Red Line and AMSOIL. The DOES get dirty, however, their is no disputing that SYN is good stuff.

RE: the 7500, I simply don't feel OK on the 20K but it is my personal preference more than anything. However, you should know that Porsche replaces more than their fair share of engines. And if you are out of warranty, why chance the engine going south over the cost of an oil change?

No... Any new car should be able to go 200k with regular oil changes, synthetic or not, if it's cared for properly. This was a car that was run 200k with NO oil changes between. I actually may still have the article somewhere, I can try to find it. Am I suggesting you go 200k between oil changes? No -- just stating that the slow shift over the last several years from 3k to 15-20k may not be as big a deal as some people are suggesting. And from a guy who has changed his own oil since he was 16, I will say that whether it's as clean as new or not, it LOOKS clean. It doesn't form that black thick sludge like dino oil. It stays yellow and clear.

I'm ok with personal preference, but I just think that a lot of car guys have a hard time breaking the mold that we grew up on -- 3k dino changes. If we applied the same stubborness to other areas of our cars, we'd all be running redline tires on 16" steel rims, upgrading our carbeurators, and adjusting our timing every time we change the oil.

Both cars and oil have made huge progress in the last several years. So why, then, can't we accept that the two would work together in harmony longer than they used to?

[Brucelee]

I have to respectfully disagree on several key points.

One-if you read that someone ran 200K on THE SAME OIL and they say the engine was fine and the oil was clean and fine, they are simply lying. I bet they DID NOT do an oil analysis on that oil.

Even the staunchest supporters of synthetic oil would laugh at this claim. As I said, AMSOIL is the most agressive oil maker out there and they say, 25K or one year. They acknowedge that even their oil picks up contaminents, degrades and loses it viscosity, albiet more slowly than dino oil.

Two-I have used SYN for years and love it. As stated, when I drain the oil from my Buell, it is BLACK after 2500 miles. There is particulate matter in the oil that I am very happy to get it out of my engine and trans.

In my Porsche's it is BLACK after 7500 miles.

So, I am not in the 3000 mile club but I can tell you that for a few bucks extra, I am NOT subjecting my 12K engine to the any extra risk when MY money is on the line, I don't recommend the 15K to my customers either, simply because most of them would have to pay if the engine goes bye bye!

I love oil threads!

[YellowJacket]

Fair enough on the disbelief on the 200k oil story. I wouldn't believe everything some random guy on a message board told me, either! If I can find a reference to it, I'll send it to you, just for pure acedemic interest in the matter.

I'm coming up on my first Boxster oil change. I'll let you know if it comes out black as it does in your Boxster, or yellow, as it did in my BMWs before this.

But yea -- it's funny how something like oil that has no bearing on any car except your own can cause such a debate!

[Brucelee]

Might be worth getting an oil analysis done. I think you can do this for around $25.00 and it would be either reasurring or perhaps have us all change our practices.

:dance:

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I love oil threads!

My apologies.

[tqtran]

eslai: Since you got your 987 new, I would suggest getting all those little Porsche stamps in your maint. manual. So take it in for the oil changes 5-10 years down the raod, you would be glad you got the little stamps cause its one of those things that if one is missed, you can never get it back.

[RandallNeighbour]

somebody should make up those little stamps and sell them on Ebay! I bet there's a good market for those when you did the oil change yourself or oops, forgot to get one on time and just need to keep that maintenance book up to snuff.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by tqtran

eslai: Since you got your 987 new, I would suggest getting all those little Porsche stamps in your maint. manual. So take it in for the oil changes 5-10 years down the raod, you would be glad you got the little stamps cause its one of those things that if one is missed, you can never get it back.

Thanks, I agree. I will do all of the official servicing via the Porsche authorized service centers, but if I wanted to do an oil change before the service interval I guess I wouldn't get a stamp for that, right?

[Brucelee]

I do two things on this. I keep all of my service invoices in a folder. Also, if I do an interim oil change, I keep those receipts too.

I also create an excel spreadsheet to summarize the work done and dates.

REALLY helps in a number of ways, including at sale time.