my car is up for sale again, with half the mileage

[djomlas]

dont know how they wound the mileage back, but now its an S, and low miles.

freggin scammers. spread the word around if anyone knows anyone that is interested in this car.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/1953268685.html

[ekam]

Wow. Is this the person you sold the car to? It doesn't say it's an S anywhere.

[Flavor 987S]

DJ, just file a report with Carfax.

[djomlas]

well its on the decklid....and i have no clue who this is, as it keeps popping up on chicago CL with different sellers all the time with different miles.

i even saw it tagged as a 2003 not long ago

[Brucelee]

Boy, it is no longer "easy" to wind back on odometer. But, you can replace them, although you have to know what you are doing.

I wonder if CFax is going to catch this. It should.

[djomlas]

yeah i dont know how its been done....it looks exactly the same as when i had it, with green tinted film still intact. must have been unplugged from the car and hooked up to something...

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Boy, it is no longer "easy" to wind back on odometer. But, you can replace them, although you have to know what you are doing.

I wonder if CFax is going to catch this. It should.

It's shocking at how easy it is to do on a 9X6 car (I don't know about 9X7). All you need to do is grab an appropriate cluster (basically either "old" style or "new" style) with lower miles, swap it into the car, and if it was coded correctly, you're done. If not, just get a friend with a PST to re-code it and that's it.

BMW stores the mileage in two places (the cluster and what's called the "Light Control Module") and those two values must match within 60 miles, otherwise it throws the "tamper dot" on the mileage display. Porsche only stores it in the cluster (this may have changed with the 9X7 but I don't know).

If Carfax doesn't catch it, the state should.

[Boxtaboy]

Contact them and tell them you know what's up, and that the authorities are on their way to prosecute them.

[Lil bastard]

It's not that hard to change the mileage. The PST2 or PIWIS can set a new odometer to any number you want - that's what a dealer does if you have to replace it. The key here is that it's just a number.

Hiding 60k mi. worth of wear and tear is another story. There are so many things you can check to see if the car is consistent with the miles clocked on the odo. Minor things from carpet wear, windshield pitting, underside dirt/corrosion, rubber parts incl. seals and hoses, etc.

I have bought many low mileage cars. I'm attracted by the posted miles in the ad, but then I spend a whole lot of time comparing what I actually see with the numbers on the odo and service records.

The 20 y.o. 964 I recently bought, advertised with 20k mi., had no wear or scratches on the steering wheel, no wear to the seat bolsters or carpets, the pedal rubbers were practically new, owners manual pac intact with no creases or dog ears, original tires and battery, spare never mounted, complete, unused toolkit and jack, shiny exhaust and heat exchangers, no minute scratches on any of the exterior light lenses, clean suspension members, engine stickers, paint not shrunk or cracked from excessive heat cycles, all zinc chromate coated parts still a nice gold/yellow. Everything I checked was consistent with the mileage advertised. The bonus was the service records which listed all service from a dealer warrantied clutch pedal adjustment at 416 mi. Also, the mileages and dates (on receipts and work orders) were also consistent. I have absolutely no doubt that the car's indicated 20,372 miles were correct and original. If I had ANY doubt, I wouldn't have necessarily walked away from the car, but I would DEFINITELY have lowered the top price I would be willing to pay.

So, while it's dastardly (not to mention illegal) for a seller to roll back mileage to try to sell a car or sell it for more than it's worth, it's a fairly lazy or unwary buyer who's gonna fall for it.

You have to look beyond the numbers and corroborate them by the car's appearance. Any inconsistencies (and there should be VERY few) need to be reasonably explained.

Cheers!

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

It's not that hard to change the mileage. The PST2 or PIWIS can set a new odometer to any number you want - that's what a dealer does if you have to replace it. The key here is that it's just a number.

I doubt these guys bought a new cluster and coded it to the mileage they wanted to show. They probably just found a cluster with lower mileage and swapped them.

[djomlas]

^
i doubt that, as this is definitely the cluster that i had, as the stuff is painted and green tint on there as well that i haven't seen anyone do, which is basically a green tinted screen. so it was definitely plugged into something and rolled back....

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Cloudsurfer

I doubt these guys bought a new cluster and coded it to the mileage they wanted to show. They probably just found a cluster with lower mileage and swapped them.

I agree, but what I said about new clusters also applies to used or existing ones. Porsche dealers say they will not roll back the mileage. If you replace the cluster, they program it with the mileage listed on the old one.

But, they can set the mileage to whatever they want - the diagnostic tools have the capability. I've heard a PCNA service mgr. say they don't, but then I watched an Indy w/ PST2 actually do it. You don't even really need a PIWIS or PST2. If you're a good computer guy, you can get the software for these machines, either independently, or by actually hacking the tester, then run it from a PC w/ diagnostic cable such as the Durametric one. In fact, I saw an TV program who used a reformed auto thief w/ laptop to show how it's done. He rolled back the miles on a current Mercedes Benz and if you can do it on an MB, you can do it on a Porsche.

From what I've heard, the electronic odometers can be rolled back much more easily than the mechanical ones leaving no trace if you have the codes. At least the mechanical ones had tamper-proof, one-time caps which were difficult to source or replace and then because the rollback is done physically, evidence in the form of scratches and such on the odo gears, circlips and such is often left behind.

There is the possibility that the change is recorded elsewhere in the car, such as the BMW example, but this too can be defeated, and pros will know how to do this.

The point is, you really cannot trust the odometer alone on ANY car. You always need to corroberate it (within a reasonable doubt) by other visual indicators on the car itself such as I have described. And, my description is certainly not all-inclusive of the tell-tales available to the astute buyer.

Cheers!

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

I agree, but what I said about new clusters also applies to used or existing ones. Porsche dealers say they will not roll back the mileage. If you replace the cluster, they program it with the mileage listed on the old one.

But, they can set the mileage to whatever they want - the diagnostic tools have the capability. I've heard a PCNA service mgr. say they don't, but then I watched an Indy w/ PST2 actually do it. You don't even really need a PIWIS or PST2. If you're a good computer guy, you can get the software for these machines, either independently, or by actually hacking the tester, then run it from a PC w/ diagnostic cable such as the Durametric one. In fact, I saw an TV program who used a reformed auto thief w/ laptop to show how it's done. He rolled back the miles on a current Mercedes Benz and if you can do it on an MB, you can do it on a Porsche.

From what I've heard, the electronic odometers can be rolled back much more easily than the mechanical ones leaving no trace if you have the codes. At least the mechanical ones had tamper-proof, one-time caps which were difficult to source or replace and then because the rollback is done physically, evidence in the form of scratches and such on the odo gears, circlips and such is often left behind.

There is the possibility that the change is recorded elsewhere in the car, such as the BMW example, but this too can be defeated, and pros will know how to do this.

The point is, you really cannot trust the odometer alone on ANY car. You always need to corroberate it (within a reasonable doubt) by other visual indicators on the car itself such as I have described. And, my description is certainly not all-inclusive of the tell-tales available to the astute buyer.

Cheers!

As someone who has a PST2, I'm now very curious as to how to change the mileage in a cluster that is NOT brand new. I am looking to source a 996 cluster, and I would love to get the correct mileage in there, without buying a new cluster.

[fatmike]

djomlas -- thanks for your post, maybe it will help someone.





How about some new pictures from you? It's been a while.







/

[djomlas]

hehehe, im rocking a new car now, heres pics of that, i actually just put new wheels/tires on it and a CF hoodscoop last week.

[pompous]

Originally Posted by Cloudsurfer

It's shocking at how easy it is to do on a 9X6 car (I don't know about 9X7). All you need to do is grab an appropriate cluster (basically either "old" style or "new" style) with lower miles, swap it into the car, and if it was coded correctly, you're done. If not, just get a friend with a PST to re-code it and that's it.

BMW stores the mileage in two places (the cluster and what's called the "Light Control Module") and those two values must match within 60 miles, otherwise it throws the "tamper dot" on the mileage display. Porsche only stores it in the cluster (this may have changed with the 9X7 but I don't know).

If Carfax doesn't catch it, the state should.

Really? I was thinking the box might store it in the engine control module or something. Is this not the case & it's only in the cluster? I'd think with all the security features the car has that the mileage would be kept in at least two spots to prevent such things.

[jmatta]

I sent the ad poster an email asking to see the car, since I live in the Chicago area and "know" the car, plus it's history from the forums. I also stated the Boxster community knows the car well, since the prior owner was an active online member.

We'll see if I get any response in return...(won't hold my breath).

[djomlas]

yeah, i dont mind someone selling it, drove it, enjoyed it, and now wants to sell it, fine.
but saying that its something that its not and falsifying miles on it is pretty much robbery.

[Viper5]

I was told by the dealers (could be worthless) that you can only change the mileage on a new cluster and only once. It comes from the manufacturer in an "imprint" mode if you will.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Viper5

I was told by the dealers (could be worthless) that you can only change the mileage on a new cluster and only once. It comes from the manufacturer in an "imprint" mode if you will.

YES! That's what they say.

They also say that you cannot add the OBC w/o buying the whole option something like $600 - they were misleading here too.

Cheers!