Another one bites the dust - probable IMS issue
 

My 2004 (with 20k) miles started making the dreaded IMS noise this weekend. Luckily I was able to shut it off within about a mile of first noticing the noise. I'm towing it down to Jake Raby to get the experts view on it.

That sad thing is I had already been talking to Jake about doing the IMS upgrade along with a 3.2 -> 3.6 upgrade this winter. Now if the motor can be salvaged I'm looking at the cost of the IMS upgrade now + the cost of the 3.2 - > 3.6 this winter or proceeding with the 3.2 -> 3.6 now and basically being without the car for nearly all the rest of 2010 (the IMS service can be done quickly while the 3.2 -> 3.6 rebuild takes a long time).

I'm pretty bummed about it. Oh well, the car sure does make a pretty paper weight.

hopefully no real damage was done.

Hope it works out well...

Out of curiosity, what sound did you hear when this happened?

Sort of a metal on metal sound, not too much different than a really bad "engine knock" sound if that makes any sense.

sorry to hear about your possible loss

What is your mileage? Oil change intervals?
 

Original Owner? Oil brand used? Did you just take it out of storage?

I've had the car for about 3years and am the 2nd owner. I got the car with just shy of 15k on the clock and it has a little over 20k miles now. The first owner did all the work through Brumos Porsche and had 3 annual oil changes with Mobil 1 0w-40, basically with each oil change covering about 4,000 to 6,000 miles on the car.

I change the oil every 6 months with Redline 5w-40. Each change covers roughly 1,000 miles.

Yes, the car had recently been pulled out of storage. It had been driven maybe 40-50 miles over a few days before this issue.

The more I think about it the more I think it really isn't worth it to wait for a clutch change to do the IMS upgrade. You're just saving some money but its costing you a lot more if your number comes up. Although you had very low miles it just goes to show that for the small unlucky segment that suffers this fate...it can come at any time. My car is undergoing the upgrade now (along with a bunch of other things...lots of $ and time). I'm sorta glad the clutch went a little earlier than I imagined. I probably would have put off the IMS job.

mts - what a bummer for you, we feel your pain man........
Keep us informed what Jake's prognosis is - you never know, if your lucky the problem could be just a shot water pump !!

The ironic thing is I put off the 3.2 -> 3.6 deal right now because it meant I would be without the car from 4/1 to about 6/15 this year......the spring time in this area is the best time to have a Boxster. I opted for possibly next winter instead.

Now this happens and Jake can't even look at it until early June because he's already booked, so instead of the car already being down there being worked on right now knowing I'll get it back in June, it's going to sit in my garage until June before I can even get a definative diagnosis. :(

I guess as the saying goes.....$hit happens.

Very sorry to hear about your issues. I hope it's something easily fixable (read inexpensive). I'm personally torn about whether to do preventative maintenance on mine, clutch and IMS....01, base, 70K miles, with several trips to the track yearly. It doesn't need a clutch but dangggggg. It sounds like yours was maintained very well...low mileage oil changes, etc etc. Which is a real bummer, since I do the same thing. Not at 1,000 miles, but no more than 7K. And still this happens.

Based on your postings, I'm assuming you don't abuse it..no over revs, but don't lug it either, keeping the revs above 3K when possible? I wonder if there's any possibility that the relatively low annual mileage and longish storage, might have anything to do with it? Wondering and, for my sake, hoping, since I drive mine year round and have been putting 12 K miles on it per year since I've owned it. (Don't take that the wrong way.. I have no ill wishes for you at all. I'm pulling for it to be something simple) But if driving it and accumulating mileage will help prevent IMS issues, I'm all in for that!

I suppose the best solution is to drive it and fugggget about it till (and unless) something happens. Not sure what else a person can do, without spending boatloads of cash. sigh.


Bob

Be interesting to see what Jake has to say about your engine...it really doesn't fit the profile to have something as serious as an IMS failure.

Keep us up to date and your fingers crossed.

Bob O,
I think you should do it. If I'm not mistaken the experts on the subject have written that if its going to go, it will do so by 70K. Sounds like you are in the eleventh hour. But on the other hand If you're still on your original clutch you might have a couple more years left of clutch use. The way I looked at it....a clutch job at an Indy shop will cost you $1200. That's works out to a couple hundred bucks a year if you can get 10 years out of it. I'd rather skip the $400 lost in doing the clutch 2 years prematurely and reduce my risk of DEFCON 3 down to probably less than what..1%? Meanwhile you still have a new clutch at the end of it all, albeit adding another $600-$800 to the job.
There's a guy on YouTube who did his 996 Carrera in his garage without any experience taking apart transmissions. So an experienced shop could do it no problem, 8 hours tops? I guess that's one of the great things about these newer Porsches. It's much less complicated than old 'hand assembled' Porsches.

Did mine in my garage exactly one month ago, other than replacing a motor mount it was the first time I had ever worked on a German car. I had to pull out the tranny to send it out for rebuild so I figured what the hey, new clutch, RMS and IMS bearing while I'm in there. Once you are to the point where you can see the IMS flange, it really is a simple procedure to remove and replace it. Other than cramped quarters, these Boxsters really are easy to work on.

P.S. I have a 2002 Boxster S with 39k miles. Single row IMS bearing removed was as tight as a drum. These forums and stories like MTS's cause me no regret in doing the procedure / spending the money....peace of mind.

Coreseller, the single row IMS bearing was "tight as a drum" in a good or bad way?
Also, to the original poster, don't you think you should have your 04 SE with only 20K miles diagnosed by a Porsche dealership? It might trun out to be something simple, or worst case, you can ask for good faith help from PCNA. Won't hurt to ask!

Good luck

Our local dealership closed in January. Frankly, if the engine isn't toast I'm much more comfortable getting Jake to look at it than the dealership. Even if I got a new motor from Porsche the first thing I would do is do the IMS upgrade on it so I'm pretty much out that $$ no matter what and was planning to do that anyway. If the engine is toast perhaps that's a different story.

How do you know for sure it's the IMS? Could be just a failed water pump or bad lifter or something else. Instead of keeping it out of commission for so long, why not have it checked by a local indy shop?

Seventythree,
tight as a drum is a good thing. No leaks, no play, no loose bearings, no problem.
My Indy reported the same about my dual row after 10 years of use.
I was a little worried at first because I bought the car with barely 9K miles
and after four years it probably had only had one oil change.. and then I was using Mobil at 8 to 10 month intervals for the next 50K miles because the car is only a weekend driver. I've since gotten off the 0 weights and use Castrol Syntec 5W40 every six months, Advanced Auto usually has a 5 for $25 sale.

Yep, Perfect was correct, my IMS bearing was in fine condition. I truly hope for MTS's situation to be something other than the IMS. If any of you other guys are anything like me you'd probably have a coronary if a can of walnuts turned over in your trunk while driving, you'd just KNOW that the damned IMS bearing crapped out on you causing all sorts of angst and finacial pain. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Good luck MTS.... :cheers: .

Interesting,sad, but interesting that another low mileage with an ims problem. I really hope its something else and real cheap. I am still wondering why the majority of the cars are lower mileage? I am sure you will, but keep us posted. and So sorry to here :cheers:

Questions:
1.) Auto or stick?
2.) I think you said 3.2 am I correct that is was the "s" version?
3.) Any hints it was coming? IE. reving high, running hot, oil leaks on the floor.....?

1) Stick
2) 3.2 "S"
3) No hints it was coming. No oil leaks, had the rear main done at under 10k miles under warranty. It's driven hard, but no track stuff, I have another car for that.

Based on all the "searching" on the forums I've done I can't seem to find any direct correlation among the failures. It's like you are either lucky or you aren't. I did find (2) other 2004 550 SE owners that had their IMS go out right at 20k miles though which is bizzare. There were only 900 of those cars that came to the US, figure what low % of owners are on these forums and 2 of these cars (possibly 3) had failures right at 20k miles........obviously not near a big enough sample to draw any conclusion, but odd none the less.

I too hope it's not the IMS, but that sound at idle "ain't good" at all. There's a local guy I trust that used to be the master tech at Porsche of Lexington before they shut down that just opened his own shop. I'll probably get him to pull the tranny to confirm it's the IMS while I wait for a slot with Jake Raby in June. However, if it is a comfirmed IMS it's probably best to let Raby do the work on it.

There is no reason to think a 90k+ miles car
 

won't have an IMS problem. Know of several. It really seems to have little correlation with miles driven.

we need an IMS failure facebook page :)
Porsche won't like that....or maybe one already exists..

Can we get some hats and t-shirts made up too? :D

We should get spoiler decals made up too, saying, "..No IMS failure...YET!" :D

"My IMS failed and all I got was this lousy t-shirt ... and a massive repair bill"

I just checked...there's no "MY IMS FAILED" facebook.

Although if you're going to do that something much more inflamatory would be in order.

"My $80K Porsche engine exploded...can you spare a Benjamin?"




keep them coming :D

In good will, did Porsche cover half the cost of the tee shirt at least? :D

Another IMS failure on a '04 Anniversary Edition w/60k reported on Renntech this morning, ouch:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?/topic/32741-intermediate-shaft-failure-need-2004-anniversary-engine/?

wasn't there a forum member here who had two IMS failures one being the 550 anniversary car?

Yep, his name is Dennis, and I know him personally. He ended up selling the 04 SE for a 350z. One was a base 986 that failed on him, and then the 04 SE. He had enough. After 2, I don't blame him.

He's got to be in the smallest % of 986/996 owners. Not only did he have one which I'm guessing is probably what less than what 10% of all owners? He then got hit by lightning a second time. That's gotta be single digits.
But the really amazing part is that he signed up for Porsche number two.
The number of people who took that step must be in the fractions of 1%.

I dunno...I put all this down to cars making horsepower gains way too quickly.
I'm not really familiar with Ford and Chevy engines but all European cars have some engine issues. from the 60's to the 80's horsepower didn't really go up by leaps and bounds. Look how little HP an M3 had even in the early 90's, what less than 240 hp? The standard Carrera after decades and decades didn't cross the 300 hp mark until 2005. Yet every year these guys keep finding more and more HP. I don't think the engineering was keeping up in terms of engine integrity.

The IMS bearing problem is really just that, a bearing design flaw / wrong application problem. It really doesn't have anything to do with horsepower. You are right though regarding the leaps and bound horsepower numbers have taken. A 2010 Boxster S has more horsepower than the ground breaking 1978 911 Turbo.

Update
 

I was able to tow the car to a local Porsche tech who was unfortunately able to confirm that my initial diagnosis of an IMS failure was correct. Now I've got to figure out what to do. Initial thoughts are:

1) Let Jake Raby take a look and get his thoughts. Unfortunately he's on almost a 2 month backlog before he can even look at the car. It will be June before I can even tow it down there to get his thoughts. He's indicated even on a failure caught as quickly as mine was, it's probably less than a 50% chance the motor can be saved(debris in the engine everywhere). If it needs to be rebuilt, I would probably go ahead with the 3.2->3.6 upgrade, but if that is decided in June it will be approximately February 2011 before that work can be completed according to Jake. So I would be out out the cost of the rebuild plus being without the car for almost a year. :(

2) Do a new crate motor from Porsche and replace the bearing with one from LN before sticking it in the car. This is easily the option that gets the car back on the road the quickest and sadly may end up being one of my least expensive alternatives as well.

3) Call RUF in Dallas to see about doing one of their 3.6 conversions. I would insist on the IMS bearing being upgraded to the LN one before installation. This is probably the most expensive route, but gets the car back on the road in a reasonable amount of time. Anyone dealth with them before?

4) Take my chances on a salvage motor. Frankly this isn't too appealing to me. If my pristine 20k motor failed, how much faith would I really ever have in one that I have no history on?

5) Sell the car as a rolling chasis for whatever $$ I can get and get the fark away from Porsche all together. It's a pristine 550 Edition, but even with that I would probably be very luck to get $10k for it.

By far my preference would be to deal with Jake. I've talked to him on the phone a couple times and he really seems like a good guy. However, the timing just stinks there and really is a testament to how many problems these cars have that he's booked so far out.

Decisions, decisions.

thats just sad... :(

have you seen the http://www.youtube.com/user/glenn986s 13 series video of the rebuild for a head leak..

well try to look at it this way. Cars are terrible investments. Some people will tell you they aren't investments but I call hog wash on that because ANYTHING that you put your earned income on that can be later be sold is an investment...just because its a bad investment (in terms of appreciation) doesn't mean it isn't an investment of your money. That being said what value does it have for you (fun, enjoyment, quality of life improvement, bla bla)? What would you need to spend now in order to gain an equal amount of satisfaction?

I ask this question because if I sold my very well maintained Boxster S right now I wouldn't have enough money at the end of the transaction to have comparable value. I'd have to spend MORE. and I'm not really sure the extra expense would translate into significantly more enjoyment--the car is that good in my opinion.
I'd have to go into another category: sports coupe, GT, track toy, etc. to get more enjoyment...that means more money.

But in your situation if you were to replace the engine you would 1-get the car on the road again and have the utility 2-have a functional car you could sell and recoupe the cost of the fix...you're taking a bath on the previous value of the car, but again a car is a depreciating investment anyway. I just put in $6K on major maintenance and repairs (IMS upgrade included). I'm not getting that money back...money pits!

How much is the RUF upgrade?
:D

At this rate I may never know. I've been calling RUF on and off since Monday and have been unable to get a live person on the phone. I've left a message and no one has called me back. Someone maybe out of town or something (what I'm hoping/assuming) as it is a little disconcerting to always get an automated system.

I did find out the Porsche dealership in Cincinnati has done/will do a 3.6L swap with a Porsche crate motor into my car. Not cheap, but quite possibly no worse than what RUF will charge and it's nice to at least have that option. It would carry a 2 year warranty from Porsche and I'd plan to do an IMS upgrade with the crate motor before the 2 years ran out. The other nice thing about that option is turn around time. It could be done in as little as 3 weeks for the 3.6, a 3.2L crate swap can be done in less than 2 weeks from order to install. That timing isn't crucial as I have another car I can drive while the Boxster is down, but since convertible weather is really only consistently good from April - September/Oct in this area of the country the thought of losing most/all of it for 2010 is a little disheartening.

I hope to collect a little data on the costs involved in all the options to post here as a reference to others. Obviously you could never hold any of these outfits to what they quote me, but it may help someone else with some ballpark figures.

interesting...

wait for RUF... ask them about these options

* 3.6 X51 Engine
* 996 Flywheel
* 996 Clutch
* RUF Engine and Transmission Mounts
* RUF Tuned ECU
* RUF Headers
* RUF Sport Cats
* RUF Muffler
* RUF Air Intake w/BMC Filter
:D


An anniversary edition and RUF power? The only thing better would be, a 3.8X51! (if you had a 987)

Is anyone doing 9A1 swaps yet? 3.8L and garunteed never to have an IMS problem.

Please report your engine failure.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/