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Old 01-14-2010, 08:50 PM   #1
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Flat 6 Innovations saved my motor

I want to say thanks to Jake Raby from Flat 6 Innovations and Charles Navarro at LN Engineering for taking the time to develop the IMS retrofit for our Boxsters.
Their efforts led to my engine being saved from certain failure.

I decided to take my 2000 Boxster S to Jake to have the IMS retrofit performed. There were no symptoms of any kind that I was having IMS issues, I just wanted a little peace of mind. When the IMS was pulled, Jake found that it was already in failure mode and would have soon caused the complete failure of my motor.

It's been a pleasure working with Jake and his staff. You won't find a more dedicated and professional group of people.

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Old 01-14-2010, 09:38 PM   #2
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What signs put your IMS in 'failure mode'?
I was not aware of any warning signs before an IMS failure, if there is something owners can check for, it would be a great way to avoid IMS induced engine failure.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick3000
What signs put your IMS in 'failure mode'?
I was not aware of any warning signs before an IMS failure, if there is something owners can check for, it would be a great way to avoid IMS induced engine failure.
Looks like he said there were no symptoms prior to IMS replacement. Only after pulling it did they see that it was already failing.

I wonder what it looks like in my car. I think I'm going to have it done this year.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:44 PM   #4
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It's the common engine failure on 2.5L right?

Just so I don't need to worry, mine is 2.7L from 2002.

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Old 01-15-2010, 03:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim-M
It's the common engine failure on 2.5L right?

Just so I don't need to worry, mine is 2.7L from 2002.

Kim
No, the common failure on the 2.5 is the slipped sleeve issue. Your car, like mine, is supseptible to the IMS problem that he speaks of. Whether it happens or not, who knows.
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Old 01-15-2010, 04:19 AM   #6
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All M96 engines are susceptible to IMS failures, but this is not a common experience.

Go to www.flat6innovations.com and www.lnengineering.com to read about the IMS and the retrofits...Jake and Charles have invested considerable time and money into solutions to Porsche's cost cutting issues.

We applaud them for their expertise and contribution to the Porsche community.
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Old 01-15-2010, 04:57 AM   #7
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I just finished my 90 mile test drive on tommy986's Boxster and after one more dyno session he'll be dropping by to pick the car up..

What we experienced with his Boxster was something I have never seen before. When the IMS bearing flange was pulled, immediately the aroma of scorched oil was present and thats something I have never seen from an engine that wasn't already compromised from the failure.

The IMS bearing was in the very beginning stages of failure and had recently been compromised, filling the IMS tube with fresh engine oil. The permanent lubricant used in the IMS bearing had been scorched and released into the area within the inner race of the IMS flange and thats what smelled so horrible.

The IMS flange that supports the inner race of the IMS bearing was nasty black and clearly shown signs of metal transfer from the inner race that from time to time had been spinning on the flange as the bearing was beginning to seize. This is the first sign of a bearing beginning to fail! When the inner race begins to spin against the flange it isn't long before it is "welded" into place and the big boom happens.

Tommy drove to my facility from several hundred miles away and was staying just a few miles up the road. I called him as soon as the bearing was extracted, before it had even been cleaned up to come witness first hand what was going on. He saw it and smelled it first hand.

When we did our "Pre IMS procedure Dyno evaluation" Tommy's car was down on power, only making around 212HP from a Boxster S when the numbers should be 220-225 at minimum. I have the car strapped down on the dyno now for it's "post IMS procedure dyno evaluation" and it'll be interesting to see if the car makes more power with no other changes. This will illustrate just how close to the edge of failure Tommy's engine was. This is why we always perform pre and post IMS dyno evaluations.

This bearing and the way it was failing will provide very beneficial data for our program.

Tommy stated the car was making a slight knocking sound at idle after being ran hard and now that sound is gone... That may have been the IMS, its hard to tell. This is further proof that the IMS failure can strike without an IMS bearing leak or any other symptom. Tick. Tick. BOOM!
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:54 AM   #8
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Jake,

Do you have a satelite location in Kansas? I thought I heard that you did because it would be a shorter ride from OKC for my IMS retrofit.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:58 PM   #9
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Nope.. Just one location.
Tommy is on the way home with the car now, he sure was appreciative of what we saved him!
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:29 PM   #10
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Can you remind me of the cost? Bob
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:47 AM   #11
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He saved my car as well. I was not as close to death as yours, but now I can drive it with out waiting for the hammer to fall.


Extended warrenty even payed for it.
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:01 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

I had Musante Motorsports in CT put the bearing in mine. At 87k it was still in okay shape with just the early signs of play but possibly would have given out in another 10-15k perhaps. Now I don't worry about it and tell other folks to get theirs done with their clutch job!
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:49 AM   #13
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For the procedure to be carried out at our facility the charges total 3,500.00 as a flat rate, no matter how simple or difficult your particular extraction may be for 6 speed cars. Tiptronic cars vary rate wise.

This includes:
- Pre- procedure chassis dyno evaluation
- IMS Bearing retrofit kit with installation
- Updated OE RMS with installation
- Full OE Clutch kit with release bearing, clutch disc and pressure plate
- Engine Oil service with 110.00 credit toward engine oil of the customer's choice.
- Post- procedure Chassis Dyno evaluation
- FSI door decal stating the serial number of the bearing retrofitted for proof the procedure has been carried out. We also log each engine number and VIN in our database
- Post procedure test drive, usually 80-100 miles to ensure no leaks are present and that the engine performs as expected. (I do these personally)

In some instances the work can be done cheaper by other shops, but others charge more because they hit "problems". We don't do this because we mutually developed this procedure with LN Engineering and know it better than anyone.

We keep it simple with one flat rate charge, of course we can apply more updates while we have your car on premises and there are a few options we are adding as more flat rate services, like lifter updates, variocam wear component replacement, timing chain replacement and tensioner replacements.

The cheapest I have seen a shop do this work was 2,000.00 but that didn't include a new clutch kit. I will not do this procedure without replacing the clutch arrangement because they are all worn out or very close. In all of 2009 we didn't pull a single clutch that was acceptable to reuse.
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:37 PM   #14
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wow, that pricing isn't bad at all for what you get. It's much cheaper than engine replacement.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallison
wow, that pricing isn't bad at all for what you get. It's much cheaper than engine replacement.
I expected the first response to be "Damn thats expensive!"
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:16 PM   #16
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I agree it's a good price. Here in Toronto I have an estimate of $1400 just for the RMS. I have already messaged Jake that when I'm ready to do it I will bring my car to him. For 3500 (right now the Canadian dollar is almost at Par as the US) I get the RMS, IMS retrofit and a new clutch. With Jake I know that when I get my car back there is no doubt that the job was done correctly. That's more than I can say for the dealers.

My Car is 2000 Boxster S (Speed Yellow) in Mint condition with 34,000 Km which worries me as it's low mileage for older vehicle. I bought the car last spring with my eyes open knowing about all the potential issues and with a slight RMS leak.

No regrets so far. Love the car! Big difference than driving my Mint 1990 Crx Si.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:08 PM   #17
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Its not smart to disassemble the drive train to remove the update the RMS or clutch without doing the IMS and clutch.. The same goes with the clutch, its not smart to replace the clutch assembly without updating the IMS and RMS since all the components are accessible easily while the tranny is pulled.

Thats why we do all the updates at once...
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:56 PM   #18
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Jake,

You said " Tiptronic cars vary rate wise" do you mean cheaper? Without having to replace the clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing ($$$) and the tip having the addition of a couple of coolant lines I figure it would have to be cheaper.
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:01 PM   #19
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Everything is more complicated with a tip.. Pulling the tranny is more difficult and while it's out the fluid should be changed if it has any decent mileage on the car.

Due to this the charges associated with a tip are very similar to that of a manual, tiptronic fluid isn't cheap and the added labor adds up to costs that can exceed that of a manual (at least when going all the way with a comprehensive service)
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US Patent 8,992,089 &
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Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:44 AM   #20
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Flat 6

A big +1 to the first message in this thread. My experience with Jake and staff was and continues to be first rate.

Thanks again Guys!

Lon

PS, if anyone wants to PM me with questions on their capabilities, feel free!

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