ca$h for clunker$ @ stealership - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

d18mike · 08-10-2009, 12:52 PM

Newbie here -- my first post so I will strenuously avoid discussing politics. But a couple of comments from here in Michigan.

1) I find it remarkable that a plan that had hopes of helping to perk up the American automotive industry has yielded the following results:

Top 10 cash for clunkers purchases
Toyota Corolla
Ford Focus
Honda Civic
Toyota Prius
Toyota Camry
Hyundai Elantra
Ford Escape FWD
Dodge Caliber
Honda Fit
Chevrolet Cobalt

More than half the cars in the top ten are from companies headquartered outside the USA. I know many are built here ... but that leads into the more important point.

The central issue for the American car industry is reigniting the country's passion for the automobile. It does not lie in rebates or tax incentives or even in quality (table stakes). It's about producing something that doesn't look and drive like a jellybean on 4 wheels and understanding that the difference breaking even and making a profit lies in the passionate consumer.

Brucelee · 08-10-2009, 01:02 PM

It's funny, but Robin Hood is the model for the whole "redistribute the wealth" myth. Robin Hood, was in fact, a thief. The fact that he gave his stolen property to the so-called poor is in my book, irrelevent.

Now, it is so 60s to think RH was a cute guy and that what he did was a good thing. However, once you decide that stealing is OK for some, well then, the slippery slope has begun.

Indeed, when those in power decide that YOU are the guy to have his wealth re-distributed (stolen), you may feel differently about RH and how cute he was.

Hey, money is a relative thing. Someone ALWAYS has less than you do. If so,

HAND IT OVER>

timothy · 08-10-2009, 02:24 PM

Texas instituted a Robin Hood school finance plan in 1993. Since we do not have state income tax, property tax revenue funds K-12 education. The idea was to take money from property tax rich districts and give it to districts with lower property tax values. As many expected the state to waste huge amounts in redistribution, one option enabled a "rich" district to partner with and write a check directly to a "poor" district.

The district where I was a student wrote a big fat check to one in southwest Texas. So what did they did with tens of millions in new found wealth? One would expect the poor district to buy supplies, hire better teachers, expand lunch programs, etc. No, instead they built a brand new football stadium. Soon after our district severed ties and sent money to the state instead.

Brucelee · 08-10-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy

Texas instituted a Robin Hood school finance plan in 1993. Since we do not have state income tax, property tax revenue funds K-12 education. The idea was to take money from property tax rich districts and give it to districts with lower property tax values. As many expected the state to waste huge amounts in redistribution, one option enabled a "rich" district to partner with and write a check directly to a "poor" district.

The district where I was a student wrote a big fat check to one in southwest Texas. So what did they did with tens of millions in new found wealth? One would expect the poor district to buy supplies, hire better teachers, expand lunch programs, etc. No, instead they built a brand new football stadium. Soon after our district severed ties and sent money to the state instead.

Sad but typical. "Free" usually means that folks who get free don't value it.

Lil bastard · 08-10-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Sad but typical. "Free" usually means that folks who get free don't value it.

Thomas Jefferson: "The value of something given for free is not perceived"

Brucelee · 08-10-2009, 04:21 PM

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Never spend your money before you have earned it.

Power is not alluring to pure minds.

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country.

Thomas Jefferson

Lil bastard · 08-13-2009, 09:16 AM

Another example of poor judgement in rushing to triple the size of the program before any analysis to see if the program actually accomplishes anything, except draining the taxpayers coffers that is.

$3 billion buys not-so-green vehicles

Change you can bereave in...

gstoli · 08-13-2009, 09:52 AM

Ok, here is the humble opinion of a foreigner...

Obama is good for this country's profile. He is something that this country needs if you want to reestablish good faith from the rest of the world.

This program (CARS) sounds good, yet it affects the economy and is coming from the government. Is this bad? Not necessarily... But I guess socialism (even in the very light form Obama applies it) should be forbidden, even taken out of our vocabulary. On the other hand the unconstrained capitalism was so good that its unwanted results that everyone is going through now are negligible...

Do a search in this forum for "Bush" and one for "Obama", you'll see what I mean...

Nevertheless, what makes Porsche owners appropriate judges of administration programs that are meant to help the poorer? Is it that we drive efficient, domestic cars and we care about the environment? I don't think so...

I guess Porsche owners belong in the high income portion of this country's population. Most of them may well be republicans, not liking a democrat president anyway... But don't turn this forum into a political combat...

tonycarreon · 08-10-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy

No, instead they built a brand new football stadium.

in the rural parts of texas, high school football is king. the rest of the school can be falling apart and teachers need chalk, but football never wants for anything.

Lil bastard · 08-10-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d18mike

Newbie here -- my first post so I will strenuously avoid discussing politics. But a couple of comments from here in Michigan.

1) I find it remarkable that a plan that had hopes of helping to perk up the American automotive industry has yielded the following results:

Top 10 cash for clunkers purchases
...
More than half the cars in the top ten are from companies headquartered outside the USA. I know many are built here ... but that leads into the more important point.

The central issue for the American car industry is reigniting the country's passion for the automobile. It does not lie in rebates or tax incentives or even in quality (table stakes). It's about producing something that doesn't look and drive like a jellybean on 4 wheels and understanding that the difference breaking even and making a profit lies in the passionate consumer.

Interesting POV. This program (CARS) has done nothing to specifically target America's automakers.

India on the other hand just passed legislation reducing the tax owed by their automakers on foreign revenue earned by 30%. That's a real incentive and also allows them to price their cars more competitively overseas. We'll soon be seeing offerings from India here, in fact we already do... it's called Jaguar.

Lil bastard · 08-10-2009, 04:10 PM

A couple more disturbing points about this program.

According to the text of the act, of the initial $1B set aside, $50 million is allocated to the Dept. of Trans. for administering the program! Government efficiency at it's best!

Second, you do not even have to be an American citizen (or even a Resident Alien) to qualify for the rebate! That means that even Obama's Illegal Immigrant Aunt, who twice ignored deportation orders and is living on welfare in a Boston Housing Project would qualify for the rebate and have the Taxpayers foot the bill!

Very Sad!

urban_legend · 08-10-2009, 04:19 PM

Well you can always donate your boat or RV...
Hey how about, cash for catamarans. Nice ring don't you think?

mikefocke · 08-13-2009, 06:39 PM

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

Brucelee · 08-13-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

On its face, ah, no.

That would depend on how many cars Ford sold via the program. Since BO won't release the data, we just have to guess.

Transparency. That was what was promised.

tonycarreon · 08-13-2009, 07:28 PM

oh my, why am i wading in...

according to dealer reports on 8/7, the total # of cars sold through the CARS program was around 220,000. on the same date chrysler reported limited supplies of some of its vehicles with patriots only having about a 7-day supply left.

gm reported the aveo and cobalt and some of the other popular vehicles were in short supply with dealers having around 466,000 cars on their lots. roughly a 70-day supply, the lowest in decades.

toyota reported supply went from 51 days to 31 days in july with the prius having 13 days of inventory.

most automakers have started ramping up production. one side-effect is that dealer incentives are down since people seem to be taking advantage of the CARS program.

"The big plus of cash for clunkers is that even if they don't buy a car today, it's getting people to think about purchasing, and that's really the first step toward any sustainable rebound in the automotive industry," Chrysler spokeswoman Kathy Graham said.

ford said it would build another 6,000 focus through the end of September, and another 3,500 escape.

"The move will contribute to Ford's third quarter production being 18% higher than the same time last year. 'I think we were surprised by the speed and the urgency with which consumers went to dealers,' said Ford sales analyst George Pipas."

ford's announced it will add overtime and saturday shifts for the focus and not close the kansas city plant that makes the escape and will boost overall production in the oct-dec period by 33%.

"Official figures from the Commerce Department showed that (CARS) helped lift US car sales by 2.4% in July, the biggest rise in six months."

tnoice · 08-13-2009, 07:29 PM

You know, ultimately it does not matter if the president is a democrat or a republican, it is the fact that all of the programs that President Obama and this administration have rolled out have created an immense amount of debt and perpetual debt.
When I work with a client that has an immense amount of debt and their debt is growing, there are really only a couple of ways we can clean it up. 1) cut expenditures ---- 2) make more money.
The problem with this administration is that they have no intention of cutting expenditures and have promised to make more money. How might the government make more money you ask, raise taxes. Makes a person worry about the large amount of money in untaxed investment accounts (ira, 401k, ect..) or purchasing anything in the future due to unfelt taxes (alcohol tax, communication tax, tobacco tax, tax on gambling, tax on cable television, how creative can we get?)

sorry just had to vent
:dance:

Lil bastard · 08-13-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Ford just called back workers to start up another shift to produce more cars because they don't have enough to sell wouldn't convince anyone that the program is having a desired effect..would it?

If you wanna play the 'Entitlement Game', why is the Administration even trying to prop up the Auto Industry? Obama himself has stated (as recently as mid-July) that the auto industry jobs are just not gonna come back - Obama: Lost Auto Jobs Are Gone Forever . If that's the case, why are we spending taxpayer money on such a fruitless effort? What happens the next time the auto industry takes a downturn? Well don't look to the UAW to lend a hand - Auto Workers Union Rules Out Concessions To Help Detroit Bailout , so why are we so hell-bent to rush to help them?

There are many more jobs lost in the housing and construction industries. Why not give people $4500 credit toward the down payment on a house?The auto industry has lost about 600k jobs while the housing and construction industry has lost more than 2 million jobs.

Could it be that the CARS program allows Obama to make a bigger splash and give him an 'instant win' in what has otherwise been at best a mediocre, and at worst a dismally failing, 100days? Or does it allow him to target the industry, the ethnicity and the region which supported him in the Presidential race?

Could it be that the Contruction and Trades unions - the 45,000-member Operative Plasterers' and Cement Masons' International Association, the 200,000 member Building and Construction Trades Council, the 230,000 member Sheet Metal Workers' International Association and the United Transportation Union, the 25,000 member International Association of Heat and Frost Insulators and Asbestos Workers, the 700,000 member Laborers' International Union of North America, all of whom supported Hillary Clinton in the DNC primaries are less worthy than a measley 400,000 member United Autoworkers Union? And, the possibilities are not just limited to these industries, there are several segments in trouble that could be assisted.

And, what do you say the the guy who wants to buy a new car the day the money runs out? Too Bad? And what about non-drivers? My 86 y.o. mother has never driven a car her entire life, relying on public transit and walking, she's not, and has never been, part of the problem, yet she must involuntarily pay to entitle someone else to be.

That's the problem with entitlements - they single out one group for preferential treatment at the expense of everyone else. This is not the type of program which is a solution to America's economy, not even short term. But, it's a great way for the President to grandstand before the American People.

limoncello · 08-14-2009, 06:36 AM

I agree, but with one exception on the housing/construction aspect.

One of the causes of the economic downturn was the residential housing bubble and accompanying mortgage crisis. For a variety of reasons (loose credit, overbuying one's income, high speculative construction) we overbuilt: there were too many houses in many areas.

Subsidizing new home construction would seem to exacerbate the problem. Why not subsidize (if you have to subsidize anything) the REMOVAL of housing from overbuilt areas by demolition of abandoned, derelict, or empty/foreclosed homes.

Time and normal market forces will correct the housing imbalance of supply and demand, but if an administration feels like it HAS to subsidize something, don't make the imbalance worse by adding more new homes in an already overbuilt areas. This would just put more pressure on prices.

The residential construction industry has to shrink somewhat. After a bubble like we just saw, the industry will not return to the peak 2007 levels for long while, in my opinion.

Construction is, and always has been, cyclical - at least for the 34 years I've been in it and watching it. It's notorious for it's "feast or famine" behavior.

Brucelee · 08-14-2009, 07:17 AM

BTW, I laughed my butt off listening to NPR yesterday. They were literally begging folks to donate their clunkers to the station rather than to use if for a CFC item.

Unintended consequences. It seems many of these old cars were given to charity.

Boo hoo.