Low temp thermostats....

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Topless

There is another possible explanation that has been overlooked as to why Porsche chose a 180 T-stat for their cars ... creature comfort.

Germany and most of Europe has long cold winters and a car with a 180 T-stat has a cabin heater that ROCKS. That extra 20F makes a big difference in keeping the cabin toasty on a cold winter evening. I believe many German cars; Porsche, VW, Audi, BMW, MBZ choose a higher Tstat for this reason. One of the many compromises a car company must make when designing cars for the masses. Since a GT3 is primarily designed for motorsport and not winter driving I suspect the 160F T-stat made more sense here.

When choosing a T-stat for your car consider your typical usage. If you do a lot of winter driving the 180 might be the right one for you. If your interest is Summer driving and motorsport than a 160 would be a good choice.

I have no MBA, SAE, just a measly BA in business. I have no documentation or internal memos to support this theory. Just a basic understanding of cooling systems, an observation that most German cars have a higher T-stat, and that their cabin heaters are "the best" when it is cold outside.

Well, as someone that lives where 0F in not unusual, I can assure you that a 160 stat delivers plenty of winter heat.........................

[Topless]

Yes it does. And a 180 T-stat produces 20F more heat on a cold day. As i said, just an observation not absolute Porsche design philosophy.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Topless

Yes it does. And a 180 T-stat produces 20F more heat on a cold day. As i said, just an observation not absolute Porsche design philosophy.

Somehow, I don't see what that would be an issue in Cucamonga CA

[Topless]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Somehow, I don't see what that would be an issue in Cucamonga CA

It is not an issue in Cucamonga. Although when we spend the weekend in Big Bear (1 hr away) at 7500' elevation and there is 6 ft of snow on the ground with temps in the teens my wife might argue that there is no such thing as "plenty of heat" in the cabin.

While you and I may agree that you get plenty of heat with a 160F T-stat and it is probably better for the motor in the long run I am sure all those fine German engineers had a plan when they collectively installed 180-200F T-stats into most modern German cars. My father was an engineer and he didn't tie his shoes in the morning without a plan. Better heater performance is just one plausible explanation. There are many others. Until someone pipes up who was actually in the room when these decisions were made we may never know for sure what they were thinking.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Topless

It is not an issue in Cucamonga. Although when we spend the weekend in Big Bear (1 hr away) at 7500' elevation and there is 6 ft of snow on the ground with temps in the teens my wife might argue that there is no such thing as "plenty of heat" in the cabin.

While you and I may agree that you get plenty of heat with a 160F T-stat and it is probably better for the motor in the long run I am sure all those fine German engineers had a plan when they collectively installed 180-200F T-stats into most modern German cars. My father was an engineer and he didn't tie his shoes in the morning without a plan. Better heater performance is just one plausible explanation. There are many others. Until someone pipes up who was actually in the room when these decisions were made we may never know for sure what they were thinking.

Going way back in this thread; using higher temp thermostats has always been a cheap way to ring a little more emission compliance out of water cooled engines. Literally every car manufacturer out there, European, US and Japanese has used this as a low cost route to compliance. But, as previously noted, it tends to kill volumetric efficiency. Lowering the coolant temp improves the volumetric efficiency and the band width of the DME allows the A/F ratio to correct and still use more timing (with in the DME algorithm limits). Running the engine hotter is not better for the engine, it is worse; but because the OEM has to warranty the emissions system to work for 80,000 miles (Federal mandate), they set it up to make it easier to pass when the engine had a lot of miles on it. But, because the engine warranty lapsed much sooner, if the engine fails, it is not the OEM's problem, it is yours................ So the bean counters over rule the engineers, you get a less efficient engine with a potential for premature breakage. And where the bean counters have less sway, say with the GT2 or the RSR cars, and max performance is the target, you find 160F thermostats as factory parts……..

[jmatta]

I'm sure Jake and Charles get a good chuckle when they read these types of posts.

Me, I'm looking for the next controversial engine mod I can do to my Box S. Wish I had more time to drive it (it hasn't been out of the garage since beginning of June; and it's summer!)

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by jmatta

I'm sure Jake and Charles get a good chuckle when they read these types of posts.

Me, I'm looking for the next controversial engine mod I can do to my Box S. Wish I had more time to drive it (it hasn't been out of the garage since beginning of June; and it's summer!)

Well, I do know (not to “put words in his mouth”) that Jake (in particular) gets agita when he takes his time and money to research and document improvements for the M96, and then posters tell him he is wrong (with little or no support for their position), or that his ideas lack merit because “Porsche knows more than he does”………….. I just hope he and Charles Navarro don’t get fed up with the incredible “backlash” their ideas and products seem to get online and give up. No one else is trying to address some of the issues they have undertaken…………..people should really take the time to listen to what they are saying and at least attempt to understand why they are moving in the direction they have chosen. There aren’t many other proven aftermarket vendors out there for the M96 engine……………

[Steve Tinker]

JFP - I agree with you whole heartedly regarding Raby & LN Engineering. While I've only been a Porsche owner for 12 months or so, I appreciate their engineering and commitment to the "cause" of improving the M96 engine.
That's why I'm investing in the low temp thermostat and having it sent out to Australia.
Great tech article though by all participants......

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by jmatta

I'm sure Jake and Charles get a good chuckle when they read these types of posts.

Me, I'm looking for the next controversial engine mod I can do to my Box S. Wish I had more time to drive it (it hasn't been out of the garage since beginning of June; and it's summer!)

I've seen on this board and others that they're both more than accommodating and forthright with answers to questions of why they make the changes that they do, very professional.