OT: What do you think of the new 370Z vs your boxster or a cayman?
 

having read though the latest car mags, I have to say I think the new Z looks pretty cool. I have test driven the older 350Z and I hated it. It was a total POS in my opinion. My main beefs were that it felt like a cheap car and wasn't all that fast. I've never been a fan of american cars - I don't like the Vettes - and the Z had that "american car" feel to me....

the new Z looks verynice in the pictures. maybe in person it drives lousy - but on paper it looks pretty cool.

C&D did a shootout and had it up against the RX8 R3, and some other cars. I've driven the RX8 and THAT is a fun car, albeit underpowered in that price segment.

If I ever sold my boxster to buy another sports car and did NOT buy another newer boxster, I'd consider the Cayman, and now that I've seen the reviews on the new Z, I wonder how people will consider it up against the likes of a car like a Cayman. I know that people buying a new Cayman are NOT going to be cross shopping a Nissan Z...totally different price point - BUT if you were shopping in the 35k price point - you could get into a used cayman or a new Z.... and they are in a similar class of cars in terms of specs....

i have to say - I would rather have a used cayman, even a base model than the new Z...but I haven't driveneitehr. maybe afte rdriving both i'd be sold on the nissan... it sure doe slook good on paper and in the photos.

any of you test drive one yet? there are a few cars out there that have suprised me in terms of whether I liked them AFTER a test drive. I test drove thelatest EVO X and completely HATED it. it did NOT impress me at all. the same day I test drove an RX8 and loved it. pure sports car - just not super fast. but the feel and handling was close to the boxster in terms of "fun" factor and balance.

the new Z might be a big hit and sell like nuts - or maybe it's just the same old lame Z with slightly nicer interiora nd a bit more power and deep down it's the sasme car. the mags are tyring to tout it as if it were a whole new car recreated.

i dolike how it evokes images of the original 240Z. you can clearly see the 240 in the lines of the new 370. more so than any other Z. at least to me.

I certainly woulnd't sell my boxster (i'd only get like 10k for my car) and then have to shell out 20-25k MORE to get the new Z.... but if I was dead set on a cayman (used) and had only 30-35k to spend - I might give a new Z a test drive. it would probably blow a base cayman off the road - and it sounds like it give shte Cayman S a run for it's money...although I wonder if when you drie it around, and toss it through turns, if the balance/midengined layout of the cayman (and our boxsters) would easily show itself and you would FEEL that the midengined Porsche is far superior in feel and "fun".

If you look back on automotive history there have always high-end cars and there have always been lower priced cars with big engines. Nothing, in this regard, will ever change.

Nope. I owned a 240, 260 and 280 and this car is nothing like them. First, I bought my 240 new for $3345 (with every available option) - less than a new Super Beetle, this thing options out north of $38k!

The original Z was RAW - a large part of it's appeal... this one is too refined, no comparison.

The S30 (240,260,280) weighed 2355lbs. while this porker runs just under 3200lbs.

Interesting that this same engine in the Infinity G37 Coupe is rated at 350HP (though it outweighs it by 400lbs.) , but only 332HP for the Z - Nissan's Sports Car?

They're just marketing on the name... but that'll probably be enough to see reasonable sales numbers, just not me.

Looks to me like it would be AWFULLY hard to put the top down on the 370Z's that are available right now... ;)








(And if the 370Z Convertible, once it's eventually released, is as butt-ugly as the 350Z Convertible, well... I don't think I'll be trading in the Killer Banana any time soon.)

Z is not comparable to Boxster IMO. Nothing against Japanese cars since I drive one too (Honda), but I think most of the newer sport Japanese car is produced like home appliances, no originality. Before Nissan replaced their president with Carlos Ghosn (Renault head too), the Z was a discontinued product. Carlos Ghosn revived the Z and remade the Z with European style interior etc and stuffed it with bigger engine. However despite their effort, IMO, Z still lack of originality.

If I wanted raw horsepower, then Corvette would be the choice.

The new Z will have it's niche and will no doubt appeal to many. Nissan has a ways to go before they can fill a resume with the motosports history of Porsche. If it's only about numbers on paper and mind numbing acceleration then get a Vette and be done with it.

I've not driven a 370, but I have driven a 350. Aside from the feeling of sitting in a bathtub (similar feeling in a TT) and the truck-like engine noise from the inside, it was a bunch of fun. Great power, decent feedback, but maybe more importantly, amazingly easy burnouts. ;)

But it is a different car than the Boxster. Where the Boxster is delicate and slightly refined, the 350 is more of a sledgehammer. Both are fun in their own right. The 370 is supposed to be more on the civilized side, and it compares favorably to the Cayman S.

http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature/versus/Motive_Versus_Nissan_370Z_vs_Porsche_Cayman_S.shtm l

threpwood - I disagree with your originality complaint. All things considered, the 370 is a pretty good evolution of cars like the 300zx. Sure, it has some questionable design details, but they are anything but unoriginal. It has interesting features like SyncroRev.

And Japanese sport cars in general? What's unoriginal about an RX8 or S2000? Those are all very unique in their own right. Rotary, real 4-door coupe (not that CLS or CC abomination), 9k redline on both cars... Sure, the MX-5 is just a modern interpretation of the classic British sports car, but it brought the entire genre back to the masses in a fun, reliable, and affordable way. Without the incredible success of the original Miata, I doubt we'd even have the Boxster.

Seems to be a popular subject right now. Pick up this month's Road and Track.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7659

The only Z I ever drove was in the early '90s and it was only a year old, if that. At the time I had a 944 that was maybe 8 or so years old. Even though the Z was new and perfect and had not a thing wrong with it, I preferred my 944. The Z was nice, don't get me wrong, but it just felt loose and cheap compared to the 944 even though I bought my 944 for about $10k and the dude who had the Z had paid about $30k+ for it.

I just think Porsches are better built and always will be and their beauty is classic.

I've driven a 2003 350z and I didn't care for it too much. As fast and great as the performance is in a car like that, it also feels extremely cheap. And I think that trend continued in the next generation. IMO, I think Nissan can get away with that because most of the people who would want a car like that, probably don't care for luxury. They want a better 0-60 and could care less if the whole interior feels like a plastic toy. Whereas, people like me buy something like a Boxster when they want to go fast... but look really good and have some luxury on the side while you do it.

Personally, I'd take the Boxster anyday of the week. I think Porsche makes a much better and higher quality car. It has that distinct look compared to the overly generic types of cars that you see in Japan. That and you can impress more people by saying your drive a Porsche over a Nissan. There's no doubt that the 370z will sell, that's a given. There's an obvious demand for cars like that. But I really don't think you can compare something delicate and classy like a Boxster to something like a 370z, which is pretty much a jackhammer that'll beat you up everytime you drive it.

I have had several 300zxs in the 1990's variety. I really liked the car. They were all normally aspirated with 5 speed trans. Very simply, handled well, decent power and reasonable on price an upkeep.

I haven't like the sit in the tub feel of the newer 350ZX. I do like the looks however. Used, these cars are a stone bargain.

I owned a 280ZX. I loved the looks and the comfort for a long trip was excellent. However, in terms of sports car feel, the ZX had become too bloated and far from the original concept. Again, I liked the car but I found it to be more of a 2 seat luxury cruiser than a "I wish this road had more curves" dicing tool I feel the Boxster is..

The 370Z just doesn't "do" anything for me. I don't care for the styling and the space robot head/tail lights.

I haven't driven one (probably never will) but I've never cared for it's predecessors, either. I've owned one japanese sports car and that was an RX7 back in '79, IIRC; my one and only brief exit from german cars.

Funny you mention that the interior feels like plastic toy. That is, bar none, my biggest complaint with the Boxster.

Not bashing it, as there is no doubt that it is an amazing and fun drivers car, but the interior is cheaper and less well made than a $15k Civic. The flimsy blinker/cruise/wiper stalks feel like they're going to snap off in your hand, the leather doesn't last, the coating on the arm rest/center console peels, etc. The only thing that makes it luxurious is the badge on the steering wheel. My same age IS300 (with 92,000 more miles) feels like it was carved from a block of titanium in comparison. Still looks new, come to think of it. The Boxster, with all of 17k miles, shows more interior wear.

That all said, the 987 was a HUGE step forward in interior quality. Perceived quality, anyway. I've only driven low-mile examples. Hopefully they didn't follow VW and Audi habit of making nice looking things that don't stand up to their intended use.

Porsche never really was a car company known for luxurious interiors, now they have capitulated as other car companies have set the bar for interior comfort.

I used to have a 300ZX Twin Turbo. I loved the straight line performance, but I didn't think that the handling was all that great. I was very close to getting a 350Z when I got the Boxster. I test drove 3 of them but never felt impressed, and I was never totally sold on the looks. The 370Z looks a lot better, and is undoubtedly faster.

Nissan seems to be taking aim at Porsches lately! I am not in 2009 Cayman S territory, but the Z makes a good argument for itself. I would "consider" it, if it's still out when I get my next vehicle.

I think that came out wrong when I said it last night, haha. Where it is true that the interior isn't anything extremely luxurious, I was comparing it to a 350z. When I was driving that 350z, it really emanated a cheaper feel, that it made the Boxster look a lot better in comparison. I wasn't trying to make it sound like the inside was like... a Merc S-class or something, hahaha.

100% agree. My point was more related to the quality of the interior, which has nothing to do with the level of amenities.

Immortal - I do think we're on different wavelengths when it comes to the definition of "cheap". The 350z interior looks sparse, but from what I've seen, it is decently well made. The Boxster interior may look nicer in the showroom, but it isn't exactly what I'd call high quality or something that was built to last. Both were obviously built to a price, but to different ends.

i enjoyed reading all the feeback. My point wasn't really to start a direct comparison to the Boxster or Cayman - although I do think you *could* compare the Cayman to the new Z - as the magazines have already been doing.

I just wondered what the typical 986 owner thought of the new Z. I enjoy reading hte car magazines - I take most of what they say with a grain of salt, as I know they are not unbiased. It's still fun to read.

I haven't driven one - not sure I ever will. I did drive the 350Z, and honesty did NOT care for it. the new 370Z looks like they improved the car. I honestly like how it looks, but not enough to want to go out and drive one.

My boxster is a third car / toy. for THAT purpose, I want a drop top. In southern CA it's hard to beat a convertible on a warm sunny day. For the entrance price of a used 986 - the fun factor is one heck of a great deal. (as long as you get a good one and don't get killed on repairs.)

any of you drive a GT-R?? that sounds like quite a car!

interiors 370 vs Boxster
 

I just signed up for this forum today. I was at the Cleveland Auto Show ten days ago and went back and forth in the new Z and Boxster and Cayman. Mind you I am now only getting into the position where I can begin to think about a used Z, Boxtster or Cayman.

I liked the new Z over the old Z. But I sat in a dark green Boxster with cocoa brown interior and I was blown away. I used to think about a TT until I sat in that Boxster. The Cayman was really something too -- black and red leather.

If Porsche has ugraded its interiors, I would like to know when that happened.

But for now, I hope to learn more from this forum and get into position as a discerning buyer in 2010.

Welcome :)

The Boxster received the major interior upgrade/redesign in 2005 with the release of the 987. The 986 (1997-2004) is the model with the original interior.

Thinking about a TT and the Boxster? Go drive them back to back... you'll probably end up with the Boxster if what you want is a good driver. I say probably because if the TT you drive happens to be a TT RS, well... yeah. ;)

Ah yes the engine. Of course, most car makers have their own uniqueness in their engines because engine is the backbone, but what I was referring to is the overall design of the car to the eyes of the drivers, which IMO truly lacks the originality.

I noticed that many of these Japanese car makers is trying too hard to make these sport cars to 'look' like Porsches, Ferraris etc which they are not. That is why I said these Japanese car makers are lacking originality and 'lost' because to make something look "good", they must copy the current European style and make these cars into something that they are not. For example, for the thing as simple as A/C vent, how many Japanese sports car or even passenger cars that now have that European-style round A/C vent?

As for the Japanese car makers trying to be original, a good example is probably Toyota Prius (not a sports car but a good example). The car has a very good invented engine, but they are truly lacking in the design department because the car looks like a running rice cooker or microwave-oven for trying to look 'futuristic'. In the next few years, I am quite positive that they will get a photograph of newer Porsche coupe, Maseratti etc and totally rebuild the shape of the car based on that styles.

As for American sport cars, I am kind of glad that it went back to the basic style of muscle cars, such as Mustang & Camaro because it shows the originality of the product.

Round A/C vents are European now? I had no idea that they invented the circular dash vent! Many, many, many cars have had various shaped/sized/colored what-have-yous over a wide range of years. It has little to nothing to do with country of origin and everything to do with whatever design trend happens to be popular at the moment. By your logic, I could say that those fancy pants rounded Euro-pee-an A/C vents were ripped off from the Italians. I mean, a 1966 Fiat 124 had round dash vents.

The "euro" taillights that my other car (the 100% Japanese Lexus IS300/Toyota Atezza) unfortunately popularized are used in all sorts of cars from all countries these days. Even ze Germans. Know what? It doesn't mean that they are unoriginal; they are just giving the customer what they want.

Hell, even the "Bangle Butt" isn't even original. A similar design was first used by Hyundai on the 2001 XG300.

The point here is that everything is derivative of everything else. Sure, there are some unique elements that might be indicative of a certain country of origin... but what are we talking about again? The 370z and the Boxster? Yeah. They're both unoriginal derivations of the 1991 Geo Metro Convertible. All Porsche and Nissan did was double the cylinder count and add some leather, so they both suck. ;)

Oh - The design of the Prius is dictated by the wind tunnel. It is a car made to have a very low coefficient of drag, and a truncated teardrop is the current shape of choice. Look at a Honda Insight or, to a lesser extent, a Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe. It is that shape for a reason. Now, the inside of the Prius might be ugly as sin, but it is designed for the intended techy audience, and it works.

+1 Samson. Everything is derivitive of something which came before. There really is no more truly unique design.

Add to that the 'computer' guides the designer's hand these days much more than any muse.

Even the original Z design was derived from the e-type coupe. It's uniqueness stemmed from the performance available at it's unheard of pricepoint.

The inspiration for the legendary (and many say groundbreaking) Miura was the GT40 and the Mini Cooper.

I saw it had a "auto-blipper" in the manual gearbox, basically it revved the engine a bit when you downshifted and were taking your foot of the clutch. That turned me off it, part of the fun of driving a manual is to be able to perfectly blip it into a lower gear.

I have the same problems with the new Z as the old, looks fat to me, and it may have a good bit power more than the Boxster but it 300 pounds heavier, so it needs the extra grunt.

Boxster and the Z4 are still my favorites in the range as far the overall quality and performance, even with the higher price tag.

You can argue all you want, but you know what I am talking about. I wasn't mentioning features, I was referrring to the car shape. If everything is a derivative of everything else, it means that there is no difference in buying Geo or Boxster, isn't it?

What I said is that these Japanese manufacturers should preserve their originality, not copies. "It doesn't mean that they are unoriginal; they are just giving the customer what they want." which exactly proves my point. Just because the other cars sell well, it does not mean they should jump the wagon and copy. That is unoriginal.

Just because the wind tunnel shows that design has less drag, it does not mean that they should went with that design even if it looks ugly. There must be another option to make the car looks better? Excuses..excuses..now where did that "dorky car" slurr for Prius come from?

This further proves my point that they have no sense of car design. Talking about Honda Insight, have you seen how similar the car is to Prius? I test drove one the other day and the car looks like a copy of Prius, but made with cheaper material (they cost less too). It gives a good therapeutic when you seat on the back though because the rear suspension bounces.

Just because the other cars sell well, it does not mean they should jump the wagon and copy. That is unoriginal.

So then, Porsche is unoriginal by jumping on the Miata bandwagon, which is nothing new when you think of an Austin Healey, which is nothing more than an affordable rehash of a Bugatti Type 35. OK. I'm fine with that, I guess. Hell, a 911 is just a fancy 1936 Beetle with a chopped top.

Now you know your Prius "ugly" argument is completely worthless, right? Ugly? The car is designed to be as efficient as possible (within the confines of the accountants), and is 100% function over form. (<- I thought that was the essence of the Europeans... what's that, my peeling soft-touch dashboard?) Another option to make it look less dorky? Well, not if you want a Cd of .26. The new Prius looks much better, but like the Insight, it's that shape for a reason. It works.

Hell, have you seen a Mercedes Bionic? It looks like a bloated Prius with severe head trauma, but guess what? Cd of .19. That's impressive. Terribly unattractive to those interested in beauty that is only skin deep , but an amazingly impressive design.

Geo vs Boxster? True, there is no fundamental difference. They're both cars. They will both get you from point A to point B in relative comfort and like all cars, they are both fun in their own ways. The difference comes in when you look at the important stuff... the engine, the feel, the noises. That has nothing to do with how a car looks. On top of all of that is personal preference and all that nonsense... that's where the interesting part comes in. You can get what speaks to you for whatever reason, be it a Cayman S or a 370z. Image, design, fun, resale value, reliability, trunk size, whatever.

Lil bastard - As a designer, I totally agree... there really isn't a truly unique design anymore. There may be a new style based on something old, or a great combination of existing languages with your own personal touch (that is inspired by something else) that produces a groundbreaking product, but it's damn hard to come up with something that is original. Or maybe I'm just burnt out at the moment... :)

Uh...911 is a 1936 beetle chop off? And you have to write a book just to explain your point? Like I said, you just don't get what I said so I guess no point in arguing with you. I do not think your opinion is worthless, but I do think you are living in lala land. My opinion is not worthless and yes, Prius design is ugly. If Prius do look NICE then heaven forbid nobody calls it dorky car. I agree the term is not nice, but it proves my point that to be original, Toyota has no clue in making Prius looks original and looks "good" without copying other European design.

"Everything is just a derivative of everything else" is a typical argument of counterfeiter, no good patent infringer, no offense. If you are really a designer, then you should understand this better. Wait till someone grab your design, alter it here and there and call it theirs.

Out of topic, I see you drive a Lexus and Atenza, but you know what? Lexus is famous in Japan because the dealerships are known to discriminate buyers based on how deep your pockets are or how much gold rings that you wear. But I guess you do not know that because all your care is that you drive a car that gets you to point A and B and acceptable to you. Oh I am not jealous because I can afford a few top class Lexus if I want, but I see beyond just a car. I really wish I live in la-la land like you, but it's time to wake up :rolleyes:

Yes, a 911 is more or less an evolution of the Beetle. Look into the history of Volkswagen and Porsche. They are closely tied together, and always have been.

The Beetle was rear engined, flat-4, mostly designed by Ferdinand Porsche... his son, Ferry Porsche, came up with the 356. Same flat-4, same suspension, same etc. Then on and on. This is an example of getting inspiration and borrowing from other sources. I could go on and on, but seriously, pick up a book. Great reading.

If you're talking strictly about looks, well, open your eyes.

I never said the Prius wasn't ugly, just it was designed for a purpose other than aesthetics. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, I'm lying about being a designer in an attempt to impress this place...
Go ask any body who has been in the design industry for any length or anybody who is worth the time and they'll tell you the same thing. They might word it a bit differently, but that's the beauty of the art. Inspiration comes from all over the place. Design 101. Taking an established design, changing an element or two, and releasing it as your own is not what we're talking about. That's what Geely does in the car world. There is nothing wrong with a company wanting to make their own version of a type of car. Of course they'll share similar characteristics.

Lexus and Atenza? No, I drive a Lexus and a Porsche. I've never owned a Mazda 6, aka Atenza. Not my cup of tea. It's great that Lexus has that reputation in Japan. That's awesome, really. It's also quite boss that you can afford a top class Lexus. I can't, and I'm OK with that.

That too long?

drawing the line
 

In grade school English class, here in the States, they teach us a simple concept for authoring what is generally considered original work. Framing it humorously, it can be stated that "plagiarism is when you steal from one person and research is when you steal from many people".

With the rise in prominence of intellectual property rights over the last two centuries, what is original and what isn't has become a very contentious point and, to use the grade school example, it all depends on where we decide to draw the line and decide that something is research and not plagiarism.

Now I'm not a design expert or automotive historian but, I do think I have a pretty keen eye when it comes to differentiating design. Therefore, when I casually see a car drive by on the road that is so close in design appearance to another car that I mistake one for the other at a glance, I'm sorry, but I have to think that is not original work.

Hah, if you really take copying that far we can go as far as saying any car is a copy of the horse and buggy: Both are bodies with wheels being propelled by something that creates power.

That's why we can't say one is the copy of the other. As an oligopoly the car market is always in rivalries and must jump on the bandwagon if it wishes to stay alive. Manufacturers that try to go "solo" ends up dead or near dead, just look at TVR.

I think the Japanese aren't copying though, they still share many similarities. Most Japanese sports cars have turbocharged engines, they all tend to be really good handlers, and tend to be cheaper than what they compete with, isn't that a bit different than the competition?

Well, you may be correct from a purely design standpoint.

Then again, we're no longer in an age where form is separated from function. Form must now intergrate into function. This is most often governed by the laws of Fluid and Aero dynamics. Gone are the days of exposed wipers, quarter windows, fins, square side mirrors, recessed lamps, etc. All these things were tremendous drag items on a car and greatly decreased Range (MPG).

This is what I meant when I said:" the 'computer' guides the designer's hand these days much more than any muse. ". In other words, cars MUST look the way they now do and this tremendously narrows any latitude the designer has to inject truly unique styling elements.

To use the arguement of Geo vs Porsche, no they're not the same design. But, they have been able to distinguish themselves through a series of compromises that eventually gets them both to the same relative point. The shape of the GEO may not be as aerodynamic as the Porsche's, but the trade off, at least in this case, has been weight. The Geo is much lighter than the Porsche allowing it's design to be slightly less aerodynamic, but through weight savings, reach or exceed the function (Range) requirements.

But, also be aware that while many cars now have similarities in such things as rounded fronts, shortened rears with little overhang, aerodynamic mirrors, etc. subtle differences do exist. The fact that the casual observer isn't always able to distinguish them doesn't mean it's not an original work.

Yeah too long and lost IMO.

Beetle is designed by his father and HIS SON produced the Porsche. So there you have it, father and son, close relationship, not a no good patent infringer.

It's not design 101. That is a patent 101. Intellectual properties, get it?

Short and direct to the point.

Thanks for the knowledgeable explanation. Very clear and well-thought without the need of any sarcasm in context.

"because of aerodynamic law and computer assisted design, cars that look the same to casual observer does not mean it is not original work".

Can I say that, if these Japanese car manufacturers produce a Porsche-looking sports cars with subtle difference and probably named the model "ORIGIN", it is perfectly acceptable to all of us? If yes, then I have nothing else to say.

This discussion is never about engine, it is the look of the car.

If economy is the reason where car makers or any kind of manufacturer must jump on the bandwagon in order to stay alive, then we are all doom and our whole economy will be ruled by China (if not already) since there are no real intellectual property rules there (look at Tiffanys, Channel etc).

So, because the two engineers are related, the 911 is no longer an evolution of the Beetle (which was your original point of contention)? Man, you are really lacking reading comprehension, aren't you?

Intellectual properties? I'm sorry, did the Europeans invent the circle? Again, borrowing design concepts (such as the Z3 and Boxster riding directly on the coat tails of the Miata) is a way of life. It is a good way of life. It gives the consumer choice and drives up the product quality.

If you want to start an intellectual property battle, go see our automotive friends in China. THAT is a blatant rip-off. BMW releasing their roadster because the Miata was successful is NOT... Porsche releasing the Cayenne because SUVs are popular is not... Lexus releasing the IS as a 3-series competitor is not. Geely releasing the Merrie 300 as a C-Class clone IS a rip-off.

Anyway, I've said my piece. If you want to learn something about the automotive design industry or the 911/Beetle/VW connection, I recommend picking up one of the many books that have been written on the subject. It'll help with both general reading skills and give you a pool of knowledge from which to draw.

Whatever man :rolleyes: No need to settle to insults. It's clear you have your view and I have mine, so be it. Like I said, wait until someone grab your design alter it here and there and call it theirs. Must be a great feeling indeed!

True, it isn't quite as aerodynamic, but you'd be surprised at how close they are: .32 vs .31. The increased mileage comes from a combination of the light weight and a tiny 3 (1.0 L) or 4 cylinder that was tuned for efficiency.

No insult meant... sorry. But sure, we can drop it. Seriously though, read up on this stuff. As a car guy, it's really very interesting.

holy schmoley!