OT: What do you think of the new 370Z vs your boxster or a cayman?

[Samson]

Yes, a 911 is more or less an evolution of the Beetle. Look into the history of Volkswagen and Porsche. They are closely tied together, and always have been.

The Beetle was rear engined, flat-4, mostly designed by Ferdinand Porsche... his son, Ferry Porsche, came up with the 356. Same flat-4, same suspension, same etc. Then on and on. This is an example of getting inspiration and borrowing from other sources. I could go on and on, but seriously, pick up a book. Great reading.

If you're talking strictly about looks, well, open your eyes.

I never said the Prius wasn't ugly, just it was designed for a purpose other than aesthetics. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, I'm lying about being a designer in an attempt to impress this place...
Go ask any body who has been in the design industry for any length or anybody who is worth the time and they'll tell you the same thing. They might word it a bit differently, but that's the beauty of the art. Inspiration comes from all over the place. Design 101. Taking an established design, changing an element or two, and releasing it as your own is not what we're talking about. That's what Geely does in the car world. There is nothing wrong with a company wanting to make their own version of a type of car. Of course they'll share similar characteristics.

Lexus and Atenza? No, I drive a Lexus and a Porsche. I've never owned a Mazda 6, aka Atenza. Not my cup of tea. It's great that Lexus has that reputation in Japan. That's awesome, really. It's also quite boss that you can afford a top class Lexus. I can't, and I'm OK with that.

That too long?

[boxster1]

In grade school English class, here in the States, they teach us a simple concept for authoring what is generally considered original work. Framing it humorously, it can be stated that "plagiarism is when you steal from one person and research is when you steal from many people".

With the rise in prominence of intellectual property rights over the last two centuries, what is original and what isn't has become a very contentious point and, to use the grade school example, it all depends on where we decide to draw the line and decide that something is research and not plagiarism.

Now I'm not a design expert or automotive historian but, I do think I have a pretty keen eye when it comes to differentiating design. Therefore, when I casually see a car drive by on the road that is so close in design appearance to another car that I mistake one for the other at a glance, I'm sorry, but I have to think that is not original work.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by boxster1

...Now I'm not a design expert or automotive historian but, I do think I have a pretty keen eye when it comes to differentiating design. Therefore, when I casually see a car drive by on the road that is so close in design appearance to another car that I mistake one for the other at a glance, I'm sorry, but I have to think that is not original work.

Well, you may be correct from a purely design standpoint.

Then again, we're no longer in an age where form is separated from function. Form must now intergrate into function. This is most often governed by the laws of Fluid and Aero dynamics. Gone are the days of exposed wipers, quarter windows, fins, square side mirrors, recessed lamps, etc. All these things were tremendous drag items on a car and greatly decreased Range (MPG).

This is what I meant when I said:" the 'computer' guides the designer's hand these days much more than any muse. ". In other words, cars MUST look the way they now do and this tremendously narrows any latitude the designer has to inject truly unique styling elements.

To use the arguement of Geo vs Porsche, no they're not the same design. But, they have been able to distinguish themselves through a series of compromises that eventually gets them both to the same relative point. The shape of the GEO may not be as aerodynamic as the Porsche's, but the trade off, at least in this case, has been weight. The Geo is much lighter than the Porsche allowing it's design to be slightly less aerodynamic, but through weight savings, reach or exceed the function (Range) requirements.

But, also be aware that while many cars now have similarities in such things as rounded fronts, shortened rears with little overhang, aerodynamic mirrors, etc. subtle differences do exist. The fact that the casual observer isn't always able to distinguish them doesn't mean it's not an original work.

[threpwood]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

Well, you may be correct from a purely design standpoint.

Then again, we're no longer in an age where form is separated from function. Form must now intergrate into function. This is most often governed by the laws of Fluid and Aero dynamics. Gone are the days of exposed wipers, quarter windows, fins, square side mirrors, recessed lamps, etc. All these things were tremendous drag items on a car and greatly decreased Range (MPG).

This is what I meant when I said:" the 'computer' guides the designer's hand these days much more than any muse. ". In other words, cars MUST look the way they now do and this tremendously narrows any latitude the designer has to inject truly unique styling elements.

To use the arguement of Geo vs Porsche, no they're not the same design. But, they have been able to distinguish themselves through a series of compromises that eventually gets them both to the same relative point. The shape of the GEO may not be as aerodynamic as the Porsche's, but the trade off, at least in this case, has been weight. The Geo is much lighter than the Porsche allowing it's design to be slightly less aerodynamic, but through weight savings, reach or exceed the function (Range) requirements.

But, also be aware that while many cars now have similarities in such things as rounded fronts, shortened rears with little overhang, aerodynamic mirrors, etc. subtle differences do exist. The fact that the casual observer isn't always able to distinguish them doesn't mean it's not an original work.

Thanks for the knowledgeable explanation. Very clear and well-thought without the need of any sarcasm in context.

"because of aerodynamic law and computer assisted design, cars that look the same to casual observer does not mean it is not original work".

Can I say that, if these Japanese car manufacturers produce a Porsche-looking sports cars with subtle difference and probably named the model "ORIGIN", it is perfectly acceptable to all of us? If yes, then I have nothing else to say.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The shape of the GEO may not be as aerodynamic as the Porsche's, but the trade off, at least in this case, has been weight.

True, it isn't quite as aerodynamic, but you'd be surprised at how close they are: .32 vs .31. The increased mileage comes from a combination of the light weight and a tiny 3 (1.0 L) or 4 cylinder that was tuned for efficiency.

[threpwood]

Originally Posted by Samson

Yes, a 911 is more or less an evolution of the Beetle. Look into the history of Volkswagen and Porsche. They are closely tied together, and always have been.

The Beetle was rear engined, flat-4, mostly designed by Ferdinand Porsche... his son, Ferry Porsche, came up with the 356. Same flat-4, same suspension, same etc. Then on and on. This is an example of getting inspiration and borrowing from other sources. I could go on and on, but seriously, pick up a book. Great reading.

If you're talking strictly about looks, well, open your eyes.

I never said the Prius wasn't ugly, just it was designed for a purpose other than aesthetics. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, I'm lying about being a designer in an attempt to impress this place...
Go ask any body who has been in the design industry for any length or anybody who is worth the time and they'll tell you the same thing. They might word it a bit differently, but that's the beauty of the art. Inspiration comes from all over the place. Design 101. Taking an established design, changing an element or two, and releasing it as your own is not what we're talking about. That's what Geely does in the car world. There is nothing wrong with a company wanting to make their own version of a type of car. Of course they'll share similar characteristics.

Lexus and Atenza? No, I drive a Lexus and a Porsche. I've never owned a Mazda 6, aka Atenza. Not my cup of tea. It's great that Lexus has that reputation in Japan. That's awesome, really. It's also quite boss that you can afford a top class Lexus. I can't, and I'm OK with that.

That too long?

Yeah too long and lost IMO.

Beetle is designed by his father and HIS SON produced the Porsche. So there you have it, father and son, close relationship, not a no good patent infringer.

It's not design 101. That is a patent 101. Intellectual properties, get it?

Short and direct to the point.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by threpwood

Beetle is designed by his father and HIS SON produced the Porsche. So there you have it, father and son, close relationship, not a no good patent infringer.

So, because the two engineers are related, the 911 is no longer an evolution of the Beetle (which was your original point of contention)? Man, you are really lacking reading comprehension, aren't you?

Intellectual properties? I'm sorry, did the Europeans invent the circle? Again, borrowing design concepts (such as the Z3 and Boxster riding directly on the coat tails of the Miata) is a way of life. It is a good way of life. It gives the consumer choice and drives up the product quality.

If you want to start an intellectual property battle, go see our automotive friends in China. THAT is a blatant rip-off. BMW releasing their roadster because the Miata was successful is NOT... Porsche releasing the Cayenne because SUVs are popular is not... Lexus releasing the IS as a 3-series competitor is not. Geely releasing the Merrie 300 as a C-Class clone IS a rip-off.

Anyway, I've said my piece. If you want to learn something about the automotive design industry or the 911/Beetle/VW connection, I recommend picking up one of the many books that have been written on the subject. It'll help with both general reading skills and give you a pool of knowledge from which to draw.

[threpwood]

Originally Posted by Samson

So, because the two engineers are related, the 911 is no longer an evolution of the Beetle (which was your original point of contention)? Man, you are really lacking reading comprehension, aren't you?

Intellectual properties? I'm sorry, did the Europeans invent the circle? Again, borrowing design concepts (such as the Z3 and Boxster riding directly on the coat tails of the Miata) is a way of life. It is a good way of life. It gives the consumer choice and drives up the product quality.

If you want to start an intellectual property battle, go see our automotive friends in China. THAT is a blatant rip-off. BMW releasing their roadster because the Miata was successful is NOT... Porsche releasing the Cayenne because SUVs are popular is not... Lexus releasing the IS as a 3-series competitor is not. Geely releasing the Merrie 300 as a C-Class clone IS a rip-off.

Anyway, I've said my piece. If you want to learn something about the automotive design industry or the 911/Beetle/VW connection, I recommend picking up one of the many books that have been written on the subject. It'll help with both general reading skills and give you a pool of knowledge from which to draw.

Whatever man No need to settle to insults. It's clear you have your view and I have mine, so be it. Like I said, wait until someone grab your design alter it here and there and call it theirs. Must be a great feeling indeed!

[Samson]

Originally Posted by threpwood

Whatever man No need to settle to insults. It's clear you have your view and I have mine, so be it. Like I said, wait until someone grab your design alter it here and there and call it theirs. Must be a great feeling indeed!

No insult meant... sorry. But sure, we can drop it. Seriously though, read up on this stuff. As a car guy, it's really very interesting.

[RandallNeighbour]

holy schmoley!

[Brucelee]

Not to get to far into this hornet's nest but if you look at the evolution of styling from the original 240Z to the current 370Z, I think you would agree that alot has changed, either for the better or worse. That is simply a taste issue.

If you look at the same time period for the 911, I think you would agree that very little has changed styling wise.

To me, the 911 is a very boring car, styling wise. It is as if Porsche cannot come up with anything new, so they pretend that they found the design of a lifetime.

I like the styling of the new 370 in that it is fresh to my eye.

IMHO.

PS-On the engine side, I don't see any real innovation from either Porsche or Nisan.

I do like the BMW two stage turbos and the Euro diesel engines though!

[23109VC]

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

holy schmoley!

yeah - holy schmoley maloney baloney.....

how about that 370Z???!!!??

i finally saw one on the road and thought it looked pretty cool. but I can't say that I would have any interest in buying one. given what they want for one - in the $30k ballpark - I'd be FAR more intersted in buying a low mileage used 987S...even if I had to kcik in a few grand more to get that car - that would be way more fun and a better bang for the buck.

you could probably get into a used cayman (base) for the 30k price point. which I htink would be classier and more fun than the Z.

i agree wiht a lot of the above posts that point out that something like hte Z is a great car on paper, but when you get in, drive it, and take in the "whole package" you are gettin ga better built classier car with teh Porsceh. specs only tell you so much.

the best example I can think of was while researching what car I wanted - i test drove the new EVO X. on paper the magazines talk about this car like it is the holy grail. i was expecting to be blow away - i was totally let down. quick, but not wicked fast. and it felt cheap and very NOT sporty. i then test drove, teh same day, a mazda RX8. spec wise - NOT nearly as fast as the EVO. fun to drive - the RX8 was TEN times more fun. it felt like a sports car. i seriouslyh almost bought a used RX8 instead of the boxster, but ultimately, i was looking for a third car - that was all about fun - and a drop top two seater just fit the bill. if i was looking for a somwehat practical sporty car - the rx8 would be a serious contender, despite it's lack of torque and crummy MPG.

the Z will probably sell welll - and I'd love to try one - but i kinda doubt I would buy one - ever.