OT: What do you think of the new 370Z vs your boxster or a cayman?

[Banana S]

Looks to me like it would be AWFULLY hard to put the top down on the 370Z's that are available right now...








(And if the 370Z Convertible, once it's eventually released, is as butt-ugly as the 350Z Convertible, well... I don't think I'll be trading in the Killer Banana any time soon.)

[threpwood]

Z is not comparable to Boxster IMO. Nothing against Japanese cars since I drive one too (Honda), but I think most of the newer sport Japanese car is produced like home appliances, no originality. Before Nissan replaced their president with Carlos Ghosn (Renault head too), the Z was a discontinued product. Carlos Ghosn revived the Z and remade the Z with European style interior etc and stuffed it with bigger engine. However despite their effort, IMO, Z still lack of originality.

If I wanted raw horsepower, then Corvette would be the choice.

[eightsandaces]

The new Z will have it's niche and will no doubt appeal to many. Nissan has a ways to go before they can fill a resume with the motosports history of Porsche. If it's only about numbers on paper and mind numbing acceleration then get a Vette and be done with it.

[Samson]

I've not driven a 370, but I have driven a 350. Aside from the feeling of sitting in a bathtub (similar feeling in a TT) and the truck-like engine noise from the inside, it was a bunch of fun. Great power, decent feedback, but maybe more importantly, amazingly easy burnouts.

But it is a different car than the Boxster. Where the Boxster is delicate and slightly refined, the 350 is more of a sledgehammer. Both are fun in their own right. The 370 is supposed to be more on the civilized side, and it compares favorably to the Cayman S.

http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature/versus/Motive_Versus_Nissan_370Z_vs_Porsche_Cayman_S.shtm l

threpwood - I disagree with your originality complaint. All things considered, the 370 is a pretty good evolution of cars like the 300zx. Sure, it has some questionable design details, but they are anything but unoriginal. It has interesting features like SyncroRev.

And Japanese sport cars in general? What's unoriginal about an RX8 or S2000? Those are all very unique in their own right. Rotary, real 4-door coupe (not that CLS or CC abomination), 9k redline on both cars... Sure, the MX-5 is just a modern interpretation of the classic British sports car, but it brought the entire genre back to the masses in a fun, reliable, and affordable way. Without the incredible success of the original Miata, I doubt we'd even have the Boxster.

[tamarsha]

Seems to be a popular subject right now. Pick up this month's Road and Track.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7659

[LoveBunny]

The only Z I ever drove was in the early '90s and it was only a year old, if that. At the time I had a 944 that was maybe 8 or so years old. Even though the Z was new and perfect and had not a thing wrong with it, I preferred my 944. The Z was nice, don't get me wrong, but it just felt loose and cheap compared to the 944 even though I bought my 944 for about $10k and the dude who had the Z had paid about $30k+ for it.

I just think Porsches are better built and always will be and their beauty is classic.

[Immortal1520]

I've driven a 2003 350z and I didn't care for it too much. As fast and great as the performance is in a car like that, it also feels extremely cheap. And I think that trend continued in the next generation. IMO, I think Nissan can get away with that because most of the people who would want a car like that, probably don't care for luxury. They want a better 0-60 and could care less if the whole interior feels like a plastic toy. Whereas, people like me buy something like a Boxster when they want to go fast... but look really good and have some luxury on the side while you do it.

Personally, I'd take the Boxster anyday of the week. I think Porsche makes a much better and higher quality car. It has that distinct look compared to the overly generic types of cars that you see in Japan. That and you can impress more people by saying your drive a Porsche over a Nissan. There's no doubt that the 370z will sell, that's a given. There's an obvious demand for cars like that. But I really don't think you can compare something delicate and classy like a Boxster to something like a 370z, which is pretty much a jackhammer that'll beat you up everytime you drive it.

[Brucelee]

I have had several 300zxs in the 1990's variety. I really liked the car. They were all normally aspirated with 5 speed trans. Very simply, handled well, decent power and reasonable on price an upkeep.

I haven't like the sit in the tub feel of the newer 350ZX. I do like the looks however. Used, these cars are a stone bargain.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Immortal1520

...probably don't care for luxury ... and could care less if the whole interior feels like a plastic toy...

Funny you mention that the interior feels like plastic toy. That is, bar none, my biggest complaint with the Boxster.

Not bashing it, as there is no doubt that it is an amazing and fun drivers car, but the interior is cheaper and less well made than a $15k Civic. The flimsy blinker/cruise/wiper stalks feel like they're going to snap off in your hand, the leather doesn't last, the coating on the arm rest/center console peels, etc. The only thing that makes it luxurious is the badge on the steering wheel. My same age IS300 (with 92,000 more miles) feels like it was carved from a block of titanium in comparison. Still looks new, come to think of it. The Boxster, with all of 17k miles, shows more interior wear.

That all said, the 987 was a HUGE step forward in interior quality. Perceived quality, anyway. I've only driven low-mile examples. Hopefully they didn't follow VW and Audi habit of making nice looking things that don't stand up to their intended use.

[threpwood]

Originally Posted by Samson

threpwood - I disagree with your originality complaint. All things considered, the 370 is a pretty good evolution of cars like the 300zx. Sure, it has some questionable design details, but they are anything but unoriginal. It has interesting features like SyncroRev.

And Japanese sport cars in general? What's unoriginal about an RX8 or S2000? Those are all very unique in their own right. Rotary, real 4-door coupe (not that CLS or CC abomination), 9k redline on both cars... Sure, the MX-5 is just a modern interpretation of the classic British sports car, but it brought the entire genre back to the masses in a fun, reliable, and affordable way. Without the incredible success of the original Miata, I doubt we'd even have the Boxster.

Ah yes the engine. Of course, most car makers have their own uniqueness in their engines because engine is the backbone, but what I was referring to is the overall design of the car to the eyes of the drivers, which IMO truly lacks the originality.

I noticed that many of these Japanese car makers is trying too hard to make these sport cars to 'look' like Porsches, Ferraris etc which they are not. That is why I said these Japanese car makers are lacking originality and 'lost' because to make something look "good", they must copy the current European style and make these cars into something that they are not. For example, for the thing as simple as A/C vent, how many Japanese sports car or even passenger cars that now have that European-style round A/C vent?

As for the Japanese car makers trying to be original, a good example is probably Toyota Prius (not a sports car but a good example). The car has a very good invented engine, but they are truly lacking in the design department because the car looks like a running rice cooker or microwave-oven for trying to look 'futuristic'. In the next few years, I am quite positive that they will get a photograph of newer Porsche coupe, Maseratti etc and totally rebuild the shape of the car based on that styles.

As for American sport cars, I am kind of glad that it went back to the basic style of muscle cars, such as Mustang & Camaro because it shows the originality of the product.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by threpwood

I noticed that many of these Japanese car makers is trying too hard...

Round A/C vents are European now? I had no idea that they invented the circular dash vent! Many, many, many cars have had various shaped/sized/colored what-have-yous over a wide range of years. It has little to nothing to do with country of origin and everything to do with whatever design trend happens to be popular at the moment. By your logic, I could say that those fancy pants rounded Euro-pee-an A/C vents were ripped off from the Italians. I mean, a 1966 Fiat 124 had round dash vents.

The "euro" taillights that my other car (the 100% Japanese Lexus IS300/Toyota Atezza) unfortunately popularized are used in all sorts of cars from all countries these days. Even ze Germans. Know what? It doesn't mean that they are unoriginal; they are just giving the customer what they want.

Hell, even the "Bangle Butt" isn't even original. A similar design was first used by Hyundai on the 2001 XG300.

The point here is that everything is derivative of everything else. Sure, there are some unique elements that might be indicative of a certain country of origin... but what are we talking about again? The 370z and the Boxster? Yeah. They're both unoriginal derivations of the 1991 Geo Metro Convertible. All Porsche and Nissan did was double the cylinder count and add some leather, so they both suck.

Oh - The design of the Prius is dictated by the wind tunnel. It is a car made to have a very low coefficient of drag, and a truncated teardrop is the current shape of choice. Look at a Honda Insight or, to a lesser extent, a Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe. It is that shape for a reason. Now, the inside of the Prius might be ugly as sin, but it is designed for the intended techy audience, and it works.

[Lil bastard]

+1 Samson. Everything is derivitive of something which came before. There really is no more truly unique design.

Add to that the 'computer' guides the designer's hand these days much more than any muse.

Even the original Z design was derived from the e-type coupe. It's uniqueness stemmed from the performance available at it's unheard of pricepoint.

The inspiration for the legendary (and many say groundbreaking) Miura was the GT40 and the Mini Cooper.

[threpwood]

Originally Posted by Samson

The "euro" taillights that my other car (the 100% Japanese Lexus IS300/Toyota Atezza) unfortunately popularized are used in all sorts of cars from all countries these days. Even ze Germans. Know what? It doesn't mean that they are unoriginal; they are just giving the customer what they want.

Hell, even the "Bangle Butt" isn't even original. A similar design was first used by Hyundai on the 2001 XG300.

The point here is that everything is derivative of everything else. Sure, there are some unique elements that might be indicative of a certain country of origin... but what are we talking about again? The 370z and the Boxster? Yeah. They're both unoriginal derivations of the 1991 Geo Metro Convertible. All Porsche and Nissan did was double the cylinder count and add some leather, so they both suck.

Oh - The design of the Prius is dictated by the wind tunnel. It is a car made to have a very low coefficient of drag, and a truncated teardrop is the current shape of choice. Look at a Honda Insight or, to a lesser extent, a Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe. It is that shape for a reason. Now, the inside of the Prius might be ugly as sin, but it is designed for the intended techy audience, and it works.

You can argue all you want, but you know what I am talking about. I wasn't mentioning features, I was referrring to the car shape. If everything is a derivative of everything else, it means that there is no difference in buying Geo or Boxster, isn't it?

What I said is that these Japanese manufacturers should preserve their originality, not copies. "It doesn't mean that they are unoriginal; they are just giving the customer what they want." which exactly proves my point. Just because the other cars sell well, it does not mean they should jump the wagon and copy. That is unoriginal.

Just because the wind tunnel shows that design has less drag, it does not mean that they should went with that design even if it looks ugly. There must be another option to make the car looks better? Excuses..excuses..now where did that "dorky car" slurr for Prius come from?

This further proves my point that they have no sense of car design. Talking about Honda Insight, have you seen how similar the car is to Prius? I test drove one the other day and the car looks like a copy of Prius, but made with cheaper material (they cost less too). It gives a good therapeutic when you seat on the back though because the rear suspension bounces.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by threpwood

You can argue all you want...

Just because the other cars sell well, it does not mean they should jump the wagon and copy. That is unoriginal.

So then, Porsche is unoriginal by jumping on the Miata bandwagon, which is nothing new when you think of an Austin Healey, which is nothing more than an affordable rehash of a Bugatti Type 35. OK. I'm fine with that, I guess. Hell, a 911 is just a fancy 1936 Beetle with a chopped top.

Now you know your Prius "ugly" argument is completely worthless, right? Ugly? The car is designed to be as efficient as possible (within the confines of the accountants), and is 100% function over form. (<- I thought that was the essence of the Europeans... what's that, my peeling soft-touch dashboard?) Another option to make it look less dorky? Well, not if you want a Cd of .26. The new Prius looks much better, but like the Insight, it's that shape for a reason. It works.

Hell, have you seen a Mercedes Bionic? It looks like a bloated Prius with severe head trauma, but guess what? Cd of .19. That's impressive. Terribly unattractive to those interested in beauty that is only skin deep , but an amazingly impressive design.

Geo vs Boxster? True, there is no fundamental difference. They're both cars. They will both get you from point A to point B in relative comfort and like all cars, they are both fun in their own ways. The difference comes in when you look at the important stuff... the engine, the feel, the noises. That has nothing to do with how a car looks. On top of all of that is personal preference and all that nonsense... that's where the interesting part comes in. You can get what speaks to you for whatever reason, be it a Cayman S or a 370z. Image, design, fun, resale value, reliability, trunk size, whatever.

Lil bastard - As a designer, I totally agree... there really isn't a truly unique design anymore. There may be a new style based on something old, or a great combination of existing languages with your own personal touch (that is inspired by something else) that produces a groundbreaking product, but it's damn hard to come up with something that is original. Or maybe I'm just burnt out at the moment...