OT: Buying GM Stock, a steal at $2?

regardless of how, and why GM is losing billions of dollars...the fact remains...GM is losing billions of dollars, and most of the "experts" agree (even some GM execs agree) that chapter 11 is the best route.

I really feel for anyone who has lost their pension, or is going to loose it...but the UAW is partly to blame for GM's current situation. They aren't innocent in destroying this once great company - and them lobbying congress to make us (and our children) libel for their misdeeds to protect their pension plans is morally wrong.

At least in my book.

Originally Posted by Blue-S

I'm no fan of GM, but the concept that "no one was purchasing the widget" just doesn't fly. It was big news that Toyota finally overtook GM in 2008 as the world's largest automaker, as measured by sales. How can it be said that no one was buying the widget, when the company is #2 in sales?


As for the loss of pension in a Chapter 11...that shouldn't happen.

http://www.pbgc.gov/media/key-resources-for-the-press/content/page13542.html

[Paul]

Obama will continue to find ways to protect unions.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/07/obama-signs-4th-pro-union-regulation/

http://www.thehotjoints.com/2009/01/30/obama-signs-union-pandering-executive-orders/

[Brucelee]

I don't "blame" the union for destroying GM. The union is free under US law to organize, bargain and strike, as long as they do it legally.

The company is responsible for what IT negotiates. They could have said no any time they wanted but usually, they chose to go along and push the cost out into the future.

Well, welcome to the future.

It is, what it is.

The union was just doing its job and clearly, did it better than management IMHO.

It's a good point...Do I blame a union rep for fighting for it's janitor to make 50/hour while his counterpart in Japan only makes 4.50/hour...Hell no. Good for them.

They had a great ride...but for 30 years the "experts" warned the big three that they needed to cut costs, or someday, they'd be looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. And that day is now.

And here we are...does it matter how we got here? Well, it'll make for good debate for future historians. Blame doesn't stop this titanic from sinking.

The question before American taxpayers right now is, are you willing spend billions of our money so the UAW will survive, and GM can continue to make sub-standard non-profitable products?

We all agree - it's not fair...it stinks...but it's happened to hundreds of thousands of other retiree's...it's life, it's not going to be easy. But printing money to pay a failed companies debt is not the answer...it's equally unfair to the generations behind us who'll have to pay the piper.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I don't "blame" the union for destroying GM. The union is free under US law to organize, bargain and strike, as long as they do it legally.

The company is responsible for what IT negotiates. They could have said no any time they wanted but usually, they chose to go along and push the cost out into the future.

Well, welcome to the future.

It is, what it is.

The union was just doing its job and clearly, did it better than management IMHO.

[941MXVET]

Originally Posted by tboyer

I was wondering if anyone else is betting on GM hitting bottom at around $2?

No, but I do know a guy who has been making some coin trading GM stock, and he has decided to leave it alone for now. There just isn't a caytalist right now for a bounce. Keep your money in your pocket, or if you must own a car company buy HMC and ignore it for 3 years.

And I agree, the Union didn't manage GM into it's current situation, management did.

[Brucelee]

The below is from the UAW pension web site. interesting though, the SS is in the same boat. Not enough workers to support the promises made by the feds.

How about that sports fans!








. Is your pension up to specs:

Today, auto pension plans are underfunded and the American auto industry confronts a host of financial problems: Very high fixed costs (e.g., GM says its cost per hour for U.S. employees was $78.39 in 2003), global excess capacity, rising gas prices, and price deterioration due to costly rebates.

There is the simple problem of work force demographics. Auto workers are getting older and retiring. There are not enough new workers – or profits – to support this growing pool of retirees with contracted benefits. GM/Delphi already have 2.5 pensioners for every active worker and 60 percent of UAW members in that firm will be eligible to retire within 5 years; each car and truck sold by the Big Three is said to carry $900-$1,900 in legacy costs.


http://www.knowyourpension.org/pensions/UAWpensions/UAW_pension_qa_3.aspx

[Blue-S]

Where was all this "let the market decide" sentiment when the bank rescue package went through? Did the banks not put themselves in a poor position by loaning money to people that could not repay, and then packaging those loans into financial instruments so complex that it is difficult to determine just how screwed the investors are? Maybe the lack of outrage is because there are no unions involved...

BTW -- To keep this on topic: don't buy GM stock.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Blue-S

Where was all this "let the market decide" sentiment when the bank rescue package went through? Did the banks not put themselves in a poor position by loaning money to people that could not repay, and then packaging those loans into financial instruments so complex that it is difficult to determine just how screwed the investors are? Maybe the lack of outrage is because there are no unions involved...

BTW -- To keep this on topic: don't buy GM stock.

My theory on that is as follows:

When banks get shaky, everyone gets shaky. The thought of a bank default likely hits almost everyone. So, we went along with sheep. Also, that was the first step and most I think thought that would be sufficient.

Since then, it has been like a death of a thousand cuts and I think many are getting tired of this and feeling like we are being hose by the big brains.

HA! Great question...the thinking must be, it's okay to drive a Honda, but it's not okay to get a loan from Japan?????

I was against the bank bailout...we are now printing money (literally) to pay bad debts. In the history of the world, the only thing that kills a society faster than that is war.

Gonna be a fun 10 years ahead of us!

Originally Posted by Blue-S

Where was all this "let the market decide" sentiment when the bank rescue package went through? Did the banks not put themselves in a poor position by loaning money to people that could not repay, and then packaging those loans into financial instruments so complex that it is difficult to determine just how screwed the investors are? Maybe the lack of outrage is because there are no unions involved...

BTW -- To keep this on topic: don't buy GM stock.

[fatmike]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

I was against the bank bailout...we are now printing money (literally) to pay bad debts. In the history of the world, the only thing that kills a society faster than that is war.

"a war or 2"

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by fatmike

"a war or 2"

War used to be good for the economy. What happened?

Originally Posted by Brucelee

War used to be good for the economy. What happened?

as long as you're on the side that doesn't get the bomb dropped on it... :chicken:

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

as long as you're on the side that doesn't get the bomb dropped on it... :chicken:

I think we should bomb Detroit. Alert the folks first so that they can jet down to NO for Mardi Gras.

Then bomb the place flat. Then like we always do, rebuild it, kind of like a Marshall Plan.

If that works, move on to St. Louis etc.

What do you think?

[FTD]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I think we should bomb Detroit. Alert the folks first so that they can jet down to NO for Mardi Gras.

Then bomb the place flat. Then like we always do, rebuild it, kind of like a Marshall Plan.

If that works, move on to St. Louis etc.

What do you think?

You're funny. Only because it makes perfect sense but few would be so honest.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by FTD

You're funny. Only because it makes perfect sense but few would be so honest.

Thanks. Hey, if the BIG MOCA can pledge a trillion dollars to rebuild Gaza (which as far as I know, we DID NOT bomb, the least we can do is consider Detroit. Think of the stimulus possibilities!

How do you like my name for the new President?????

[FTD]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Thanks. Hey, if the BIG MOCA can pledge a trillion dollars to rebuild Gaza (which as far as I know, we DID NOT bomb, the least we can do is consider Detroit. Think of the stimulus possibilities!

How do you like my name for the new President?????

Not just LOL, .... hardy guffaw!!!

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

War used to be good for the economy. What happened?

"Only the Dead have seen an end to War" - Plato

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

"Only the Dead have seen an end to War" - Plato

Good one!

[FTD]

We need to Buttinski out of the Gaza Strip. Let those miserable people that insist on staying there kill each other. And don't rebuild it. Leave it as a memorial to hideous behavior.

To keep on this topic: don't buy GM stock.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I think we should bomb Detroit. Alert the folks first so that they can jet down to NO for Mardi Gras.D

Ha! Detroit, Flint...maybe we could re-build it as a giant amusement park....