How many Porsche owners experience "Customer no-service" at their dealership?

[Perfectlap]

How do you know a Porsche salesman can't afford a Porsche?
My friend who doesn't even work for GM got a very steep discount from
a friend who does work for GM on a brand new Saab. It was about 25%
and also Porsche's are very expensive cars and I'm sure the comission schedule
is not bad at all. Not to mention the fact that the dealership can set up discounted financing through the dealership's financing company.

The new boxster $43K is now cheaper than a 2004. So I figure a salesman can probably can get a crack at a new 987 for $32-$35. Financed over 5 years with a $5000 down payment, the salesman is looking at as low as a $450 monthly payment. I'm just guessing but I don't think that's a problem for a successful salesman. Porsche also has certified preowned Porsche's where any even better deal can be had because most of those pre-owned car's are trade-ins where the owner trading in the car is taking a ridiculus hit, often only getting 30% of Blue book. 70% is Lots of room for the salesman to get a good deal since the dealership made out so well.

I'll take a 2002 996 S for $40K at 1% financing please : )

Anyone can get finance, my point is paying for it up front like most people.

Anyone with a wage packet can get higher purchase or finance.
When finance is involved its not really theres untill its paid for.
When you buy it outright its yours right away!

[Perfectlap]

Most people?
Can't speak for Europe, but here in the US I would be really surprised if most people buy car's outright with interest rates at historic lows and dealerships giving cars to anyone with a $6 an hour job.
As it is today many people driving around with ultra expensive cars aren't bothering with ownership at all prefering to go the two year lease route.
I can't see how anyone who understands markets and investment would choose to tie up $60,000 into a car that will loose 40% of its value after four years. After four years most cars here in the USA are out of warranty and banks are unwilling to lend so readily for that used car which essentially drops the value even though the condition is still excellent.
My 2000 S had only 10,000 miles but lost $25,000 worth of value. THat's four year's worth of $500 a month payments, evaporated. : (
Meanwhile you could have had the other $30,000 invested into real estate or Ebay stock! (Up 220% post internet boom).
I can't fathom why anoyone with good credit would pay up front unless they had no intention of ever selling the car.

[YellowJacket]

I completely agree. Buying a car outright is a very stupid thing to do. As long as you can make more in the market than you're paying for interest (which isn't hard these days, even in a fairly conservative fund), you are losing money to buy a car outright.

when you buy a car you buy it because you dont think about selling it. Everyone will lose money on a car.
I always buy my cars upfront with cash, the car is YOURS as soon as you leave the showroom. With finance it belongs to the finance company and is never yours untill its settled. Like i say cant speak for the US, but I always pay outright.. no loan, payments ect.... rates are stupid and why waste money.

But if you plan on keeping a car for a few years and throwing it back and getting something else and keep on doing that then yer i see your point.
I just like to have thing to my name, not only is it a statment but my job pays very well so i dont really want to get involved in loans ect...
I get £110 per hour thats $220 per hour so its not really a problem. If i be stupid and jump into a ferrari my TAX will shoot up to 45% which is a no no!
I 100% see what you mean though and is a good thing if you dont plan in keeping the car or prepared to pay over so many years.
It just feels so much better driving a car thats paid for...
Its annoying when people jump into a lease car and scream i own a porsche ect..
pay for it then claim it.
However if you have finance with payments then thats ok, although its not yours yet your still making an affort to say i will settle the balance through settlement or payments. When your in a lease you borrow it for a few years...

I just hate the idea of debt, any kind of it. I need to know i can close my company tomorrow if i want and walk away. If i had higher purchase ect... then any company debt will eat that up.
do you know what i mean...

yellowjacket if everyone thought like you nobody would buy a new car and you wouldnt get the chance to buy...
I dont mean buy a NEW car i just mean even if its second hand paying for it up front in my life is much better!

[RandallNeighbour]

IMO, buying a brand new car on credit as a lease is a huge waste of money. I stopped doing it years ago. Never pay interest to anyone for something that depreciates! This isn't a difficult thing to figure out, but all too often the "gimmies" take over and the buying becomes emotional and completely unrational.

Now buying a two to three year old car with a factory extended warranty on it where some other person has paid most of the initial depreciation on the car is the smart way to go. I did that with my LS400 (a 95 bought in 99 from a dealer as a certified pre-owned) and it's paid off in spades. Car was 60% of sale price in 95, and I had nearly $9,000 worth of free maintenance and repairs done to the car over the next 36 months. I got them to replace all sorts of stuff and they never blinked an eye at my requests because the warranty backers were so good. The car is in top shape now and only 10 years old.

I'd only borrow on a used car if the interest rates were terribly low, say 2% APR and I could prove to myself that my investments were outpacing that 2% loss for the next X years of payments.

And personally, I don't borrow money on used car purchases either. If I can't afford to pay cash for it, I do not buy it. When I can afford to pay cash for it, I am very, very cautious because the day after I take possession, the bank account is dry and that makes me feel really lousy. I worked hard for that cash and it looked great in my account!

I think my bottom line is that buying or leasing a new car is a very expensive proposition, but I highly recommend it to all you young people because it creates so many 3 year old creampuffs I will then buy from you for a fraction of their "like new" value.

[YellowJacket]

Porsche986: You talk about the "feeling" of knowing you have debt and how you don't like that. You should take some finance classes. The way the world works, the way huge corporations are successful, etc, etc, is that they borrow money at a certain rate, and use it to return a higher rate. This money that is borrowed is debt. Good debt is good. Bad debt is bad. Good debt means that you are making more off of your debt than you are paying for it. For example, if I finance my new car at 4% and invest the money I would have used to buy it, and get a 6% return, my net return is 2%. If you are capable of making money above and beyond the cost of financing the car (which currently, is not hard to do), then you are financially better off to finance it. It's called opportunity cost.

I agree that it "feels better" to pay cash for a car and not have a payment, but I make my decisions based on spreadsheets, not feelings, that is my only point.

I see your point, all i am saying is i am the same as randell, i only buy a car with money i have or i dont buy. Any figures you have no matter how good means the car is never yours untill debt is cleared no matter how good the apr is. At the moment it happens the av APR in the UK is 15%.

We are talking about buying a car with cash or finace. No investing... ect..
I see what you mean about investing yes... but again i speak from a UK point and the idea of any kind of lease, finance, loans is in my view a bad idea.
I dont claim to be an expert in investing but i do know basic facts to run a good company and thats own your items, stay clear of debt and loans. It is never a good idea of finace as if there were no finace we would all be getting superb prices for our boxster on trade.

tooooooo many people buy then cant afford payments, resulting in huge boxster stands at garages which in return means reduced price.

[bamaboxster]

2 things I want to chime back in on.

First, will all due respect and condolences to the Tom Williams family for their loss of Tom Williams (founder of the Tom Williams Automobile "Gallery") to a bout with cancer. He was 78.

I drove by the Tom Williams dealerships tonight on the way home from college to check one thing out. What I was looking for was the falg pole at the end of the row connecting all of the dealers in this "subdivision". The flag, which is right against highway 459 for everyone to see, was not at half staff. I don't know what the protocol is on lowering flags for specific reasons, but I feel at least someone in one of the 7 dealerships Tom Williams put on the ground, would have thought of it.

Unfortunately, I feel this oversight is metaphoric for the way the upper management (Sonic Corporation) is so disconnected from their dealers, and how the dealers are disconnected from their customers.

Someone should have the respect to lower the flag to half staff at this auto dealer megaplex bearing Tom's name.



Second,

As for buying a new car cash, from my experience, what car you buy may make a difference.

For example; I bought my 2003 Infiniti G35 6 speed Sedan about halfway through the model year. The car stickered at $34,000 loaded, I paid $31,000 cash for it.

I drove the car 13 months, put 27,000 miles on it, traded it for the Boxster.

With the serious amount of miles I put on it in a year and it being a manual transmission on a 4 door sedan, I got $27,300 actual cash for it. I took less than a $4000 hit. This is not too unusual for 6MT owners, but unusual for the typical car market.

With that said, the G35 has held on to its resale value quite well and is one of the reasons I went back to another G35.

Another new one; In 1995, I bought the first 96 M-Edition Miata (Merlot color) which stickered for $24,000 and change. I bought it for $23,200 Sold the car 2 years later in pristine condition with 20K miles on it just under $18,000.

On the other hand, to defend the used car purchase (the one I should have kept); I bought a 1998 VW Jetta GLS TDI 5 speed, the Turbo Direct Injection diesel, with 115k miles on it for $5,000 even 4 years ago. This car was as clean as a new car, no wear showing on it any where. it was still getting 52MPG on the highway with 140K miles on it. Zero issues with this car. Only if everyone took care of thier cars like me and the previous owner of this Jetta. I put 24k miles on it, sold it a year and a half later to another TDI enthusiast for the same $5000 I initially paid for it. Jetta III TDIs and Golf TDIs and like cars in similar or less condition are still getting around the same 5 grand. With that kind of gas mileage, the savings covered the insurance and tag.

I did almost as well on my 1990 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5 Speed and my 1986 Commemorative Edition Audi Coupe GT. A little more maintenance cost in involved when you drive an old Audi.

These were cars that are sought after models and have a loyal or cult-like following. The rarer and more special the car, the better it will hang on to its resale, but only within the circle of like enthusiasts.

Look at the market on the Toyota Prius, the hybrid. It is extremely difficult to get this car anywhere in the country and the demand for them is high. People are still getting near what they paid for the first generation Prius, if they happen to give them up, and that is rare.

In comparison, yes my babied 04 Boxster will be a real bargain for someone looking for a used one with warranty still left on it for $34,000 as mentioned in the post above. Its will be a great deal for someone. I am the one that took the $12,000 hit in 5 months on the Boxster. This was the only new car I bought that had such a dramatic initial depreciation rate. I'm quite sure my future 997 will also.

I don't believe in strapping yourself down to a new car if you can barely make the payments and not saving money for a rainy day, just to have driveway jewelry.

I agree, its smarter to buy a car a few years old which is well taken care of in cash if possible. I never finance the full amount of the purchase price, nor do I max out the term for 5 years if I finance. I have the funds to pay for a new car in full and I have. I'm 35, my house is almost paid for (<3 years to go), I live within my means, I'm saving and investing money, but enjoying life at the same time.

Cars are my life long passion and its the only thing I spend money on. They're not investments, unless its a special vintage, but a careful purchase can be kinder to the wallet.

Dave

[RandallNeighbour]

Yellowjacket, spreadsheets do indeed changed one's attitude and feelings about financed purchases, but I must say that paying cash for any depreciating item is what any CPA or CFP would tell you or me if asked.

Add one more thing into the mix of this conversation: Buying cars on credit and paying interest assumes three important things that simply cannot be assumed in my mind at my ripe old age of 42:

1. One's annual income level will remain the same and/or increase over time.

We can work hard to keep our jobs and make more money, but alas, excellent employees lose their jobs every day! Finding another can often take months or longer. If his or her car is paid for, it's one less thing they'll have to be concerned about losing should their savings run dry.

2. One's health, and the health of his or her family will remain excellent during the duration of the loan period.

We can eat lots of fruits and veggies, lay off the red meat, jog three miles each morning and still contract cancer and see our life savings wiped out due to the crappy insurance we are all forced to endure in the USA. Few employers have excellent health coverage any more and the overage payments for a catastrophic illness in one's family can easily exceed $50k. Being out of car debt would go a long way toward making those medical payments.

3. One's current investments will not tank and be worth far more in the years to come.

The financial climate has changed. Modest gains can be had if invested wisely, but truth be told, the old addage of not counting ones' chickens until they're hatched is still true.

By no means am I trying to be arguementative, but losing sleep, developing ulcers, arguing with one's spouse over spent-money issues because the spreadsheets and possible interest gained did not pan out, and assumes one will follow through and invest what has been borrowed to fulfill the scenario you've laid out.

The interest charged on the loan, however, is guaranteed to be charged to the payee.

[Brucelee]

Financially, one can take both sides to the debt/leverage argument and feel right. To me, if one HAS the cash, the emotion may take over.

To wit, I have no debt at all and it feels wonderful. I could borrow a ton of money and use it to leverage any number of things. Or, use it to invest in other things.

I don't do that.

To me, it feels better than what the spreadsheet might tell me.

At this stage of my life, that is more important to me that being "right."