Solstice vs Cayman?

[Jaxonalden]

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

Your point is well taken. However, to be fair, Toyota had so many issues with the 08 Camry they just released an 09 model. Apparently, they had to do major revisions to the product to get the quality up.

My point simply is, for the money, many American cars have become demonstrably better. I rented a Saturn Aura with leather etc. and thought it was a very very nice car, esp for the dough.

[Sputter]

You can't turn it over on me.

I didn't claim to have the answers like you did.
I'm curious as to what facts you have to back up your assertion?
You don't like Unions? (in this case the UAW, the CAW in Canada). I guess you're saying that the UAW is the root cause of GM's issues?


So basically you have no numbers to back

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

[Tom Blue]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Hey Sputter, if I don't know what I'm talking about why don't you explain why American cars are built so damn cheap. I can't wait to hear your expert explanation, BTW did you hear Toyota is about to take over GM in sales in America? Wonder why? O' tell us what's going on Mr Sputter.

Brucelee, I too drive many of different cars. I rent from numerous companies and drive all kinds of cars and mini vans. I can say with certainty I know the difference in an American and foreign make. I was surprised lately when I rented a Kia mini van, that thing had balls to spare. The Charger I just rented in Tampa was a piece of crap. In Texas I got a Camry and that car was great on gas and very solid. Yea the four banger was light in power but Brucelee, you compared it to a V-6? Apples to apples-I'll put a V-6 Camry up against a V-6 GM product any day. Reliability will win every time.

Yes but in Brucelee"s defense, the US made vehicles are getting better. A coworked just purchased a Ford Edge and I have to admit that the interior and the exterior look great. I was impressed with the fit and quality of the interior and other aspects of the vehicle. This from a person who drove foreign cars for years, then bought an 84 Camaro, (this I admit only under an assumed name) which I kept for nine months before trading away and have not purchased an American made car since. Although I have driven American made company cars for more years than I care to admit so I have benchmark to measure. The Dodge I now drive although basicly a piece of junk, does seem to have a good 6 cyinder that can move when need be. Unfortunately only in a straight line. When will the US car makers wake up and learn that alot of us like a good handling car?

[Jaxonalden]

I'd love to get into world and domestic economics (especially China) and the politics of Unions, but there's not enough room or time tonight, and I'm on my why to D.C at 4am.

What I will say is that cars are going to be made cheaper and the cost will continue to rise. In 50 years what cars do you think will be getting restored and driven by car collectors? I don't think it will be anything built by Detroit.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

I'd love to get into world and domestic economics (especially China) and the politics of Unions, but there's not enough room or time tonight, and I'm on my why to D.C at 4am.

What I will say is that cars are going to be made cheaper and the cost will continue to rise. In 50 years what cars do you think will be getting restored and driven by car collectors? I don't think it will be anything built by Detroit.

Interesting point. Certainly, the collectors love the American iron from the 50s and 60s right now.

Time will tell I guess.

[Quickurt]

In fairness to everyone, in my opinion, which is not a claim to know anything or everything ( )........
I think we have two basic design criteria for American cars.
#1 is to be an American car as a completely different and unique vehicle from European cars. Large looking, large feeling, roomy and some level of posh interior and a cushy, floaty ride. The control and handling on this type American car is light years ahead of where they were just a decade ago. They are built specifically for those who DON'T WANT and DON'T LIKE a European car. Unfortunately, as more Americans drive and ride in todays top quality European cars, this market has shrunk and now 4.00 plus gasoline may have finished it.
#2 is to compete directly with European cars and here is where they've done too little for too long. I also believe, to a large degree, they have been trying to short convert designers of #1 into overnight designers of #2 and it has not worked. It may also be they have nothing to really offer European designers for attractive employment, or there is some other reason they are not getting top flight European designers.
As a qualifyer, I consider most Asian cars to be also a European STYLE car.
I believe, also, unions are a factor, but the union worker will do an equally good or bad job on whatever has been designed, considering how they are treated by a particular plant's management. Honda builds fine cars at Marysville, Ohio with UAW workers. Honda's blessing is they don't have a one hundred year history of conflict with the union.
All this being said, at one time the Big Three had every ability to make a car Porsche could only dream of, but decided not to. Don't ask me why, it's insanity to
have ignored this market until they had no other choice but to go after it.
Now that they are going after it, they don't want to actually consider what it really is car buyers like us want.
Personally I'd try to start where Dr. Porsche started. I'd take a small bore 4 cylinder, manual transmission FWD unit and do a fairly high tech material 1750 lb. mid engine car without many bells and whistles. Keep it simple, straight forward, handle like a Lotus and get at least 50 MPG as a commuter. In fact, rather than claiming to out Porsche a Porsche, I'd start a new class of car and ask why Porsche hadn't done it. I'd make sports/commuter cars. What better way to get people in 50 MPG cars than to make them fun as hell to drive?

[Brucelee]

Keep it simple, straight forward, handle like a Lotus and get at least 50 MPG as a commuter. In fact, rather than claiming to out Porsche a Porsche, I'd start a new class of car and ask why Porsche hadn't done it. I'd make sports/commuter cars. What better way to get people in 50 MPG cars than to make them fun as hell to drive?

Well said. I do think we are coming to that. One does not need a 500 HP car to enjoy driving. As you said, Porsche has strayed far away from the original concept. One could posit that Dr. Porsche would have found the current 911 turbo to be quite unacceptable.

I do think we are coming up to an era when we will see some fascinating and fun cars coming down the pike. That is why I love free markets and competition. The evolution is fun.

[limoncello]

I'd still like to see an MX-5 coupe. Nothing on the horizon at all, though.

Sports cars for today and the near (next 5 years) tomorrow?

How about a lightweight two seat convertible, weighs 2500 lbs. or LESS, front engine rear drive, good fit/finish, Miata handling, AND 35 mpg highway. Light, agile, efficient, high quality. Rear trunk big enough for a set of sticks.
In other words:
A Miata with Porsche/BMW build quality.
A Z3 with better handling, and lose a few pounds.
A modern, updated 944, lose a few.
A Solstice that a human can fit in, add handling, improve reliability.
A Triumph GT-6 that's reliable. (It was well under 2500 lbs. by the way, closer to 2000 and had 150 hp in non-US/emission screwed-up trim).
A 2002tii with two less seats, and a fastback shape.
An Alfa Romeo spyder/coupe built by the Japanese.

Maybe the Chinese will figure it out. (Here's your chance China! Help us out here!)

[Brucelee]

I had a z3 4 cylinder in stock once. The car was fun and got about 33 MPG at same speeds on the highway.

If that car was 300 lbs lighter, I think it would fit the bill.

I do still like the looks of the z3.