2003 Boxster S - prevent IMS failure?
 

Hello,

I'm new to this forum. I've bought myself a 2003 boxster S with 35000 miles. Looks good, drives like dream.

I'm however getting a bit uncomfortable reading a lot of stories about broken engines. Since i bought the car private: no guarantee.

My impression is that the engine block problems occured with 1996- 1999 cars (Boxster 2.5 and 996 3.4). RMS (rear main seal) and IMS (intermediate shaft) issues seem to continue however and it would't be the first '03 with IMS.

The car has a slight leakage from the clutch housing, probably RMS. It wouldn't bother me to continue driving it, maybe the RMS repair could be postponed and done together with the clutch (round 50.000 miles).

Now to the point of my post: maybe the oil doesn't come from the RMS but is coming from the IMS rear seal. I'm getting worried that in that case IMS failure is on its way. So i'm thinking of asking the shop to pull the gearbox. In that process, RMS and IMS rear seals would be changed. Can enything further be done to diminish or prevent IMS failure, i mean fitting a newer version of the IMS or IMS bearing?

Thanks for your opinions
Bye, Jan

I think IMS= intermediate shaft...not a seal.

All Boxster's are prone to RMS and IMS failures, but they tend to be more common in earlier years. Also know that once you get past 35-40K miles your chance of having one of these problems decreases but that is not to say it can't happen.

If your seeing oil leakage, a tell tale sign of an RMS problem, I would not try to postpone fixing it. Your risking a pricey engine replacement vs. a $600 US seal replacement.

Also, IMS has nothing to do with a seal. The only warning for this, is if you hear a faint sound that sounds like a coin bouncing around in the engine compartment. If your really concerned with IMS, there was a company a while back in the UK that was selling modified intermediate shafts, that they claimed were failure proof. I can't recall the website, but someone posted it a few months ago. I'll look for it. :cheers:

Jan, the leak is more than likely coming from the rear main seal. I don't think the intermediate shaft even has a seal that could leak. As far as preventing IMS failures I know of none. IMS failure is far less prevalent than RMS leaks. Just enjoy the car and try not to worry about it. The chances of you wrecking your vehicle are probably greater than that of it suffering an engine failure.

The flange for the intermediate shaft has a seal that can leak.

The original has a single black o-ring - the one on the left. Then Porsche changed the design to an orange seal with several sealing ribs (I think 4). This was about 4 years ago, maybe longer.

To get the updated seal you also need to replace the flange.

The clutch on my 1997 with 67,000 miles was replaced last with. I had all original seals. There was a slight seepage from the back of the engine. So I went with the newest reseal. New case bolts, new RMS, and new flange.

Hi,

Thanks for the fast answers!

Rick: the company you're referring to is autofarm. They adapt the more recent IMS (with larger bearing) so that it fits older engines. At the moment it's not clear to me if my engine already has the newer IMS or not. I gues not because i have seen many 2003 boxster IMs failure stories on the internet...
I agree that changing a seal can't prevent a bearing form failing, however i have also read tha IMS failure (sometimes or always?) happens because the 3 bolts of the flange fail, causing the bearing to 'fall' out of the engine and the IMS to create havoc in the engine... Since my boxster has a leak, i am getting scared it might not be the RMS but the beginning of the IMS bearing popping out... :eek:

Adam: we have almost the same car: mine is a red 2003 6-speed 3.2S with black interior. It is on standard 17" rims altough. Here in europe the colour is called indian red instead of guards red. You have a point in that the chances are low that the engine might break. On the other hand the car would give me greater joy without thinking about a 12.000 $ repair every time i floor the right pedal ;)

Tool pants: thanks for the description and the pictures. Very informative.

Thanks to all of you :cheers:

Jan

It is not the 3 bolts for flange that fail, it is the nut in the middle of the flange for the bearing support.

The bottom green line is the nut that has broken away from the middle of the flange. Once this happens there is a hole in the middle of the flange and oil pours out.

Hate to tell you, since you have a 2003. The picture is a 2003 2.7 and I took it almost 5 years ago when the 2003s first came out.

If you need more piece of mind how about getting an aftermarket warranty? I have warranty up to 2010 or 70k miles so if she blows she blows. Also, I drive mine hard all the time and it's been over-revved a couple times on accident. The needle has probably hit the limiter hundreds of times mostly when I autocross the car. Nothing has broken yet. Most of the stories I hear on engine failures are low mileage cars that have been babied so don't feel bad about putting your foot on the gas.....you're not hurting it as long as the engine is properly warmed up. This engine has been extremely reliable and able to handle everything I've thrown at it so far. Remember, for every person that reports an engine failure on a forum, there are thousands out there just happily motoring along with a healthy car.

My editorial comments.

Porsche makes the car. German engineering and all that stuff. Porsche sells a product that has known issues, which have never been been admitted. I expect as a consumer that a properly maintained engine to last 100,000 if not more miles before major work need to be done.

If you have an intermediate shaft failure then 99.9% chance you need a replacement engine. For your peace of mind you buy a warranty. I have a problem with that. The design problems with the M96 engine is Porsche. Porsche should stand behind their product. The risk of engine damage because of a know problem should not be borne by the consumer via paying for a warranty to cover Porsche's problem.

I heard on the news Mazda has a problem with the RX8 rotary engines. Mazda extended the warranties to 8 years or 100.000 miles or something like that. Owners who paid out of their pocket to fix or replace the engine are going to be reimbursed.

Go on one of the UK message boards. In the UK the factory warranty is only 2 years. There was a time when aftermarket warranty companies would not touch a Boxster. Then Porsche stepped in and started selling it's own warranty. So now you pay Porsche for the car and for the warranty.

From cradle to grave. No wonder the company makes so much money.

I didn't know there was seal on the IMS. If the IMS seal does leak, can that cause an engine failure?

Hi,

I know about the porsche extended warranty. Since this is second car for me, i will drive it probably 2000 - 3000 miles à year. Porsche charges 2.370$ for a years extended warranty. I find that too expensive for the use i make of the car. The options i'm looking at now:
- just drive it, see what happens try to gain confidence and try to sleep at night
- try to take some preventive mechanical action, like fitting newer improved RMS and IMS bearing.
- sell the car and buy a BMW :confused:

At the moment i'm into the second option :cool:

Furthermore i agree on Tool pants comments. It's a pity. If this thing grows much bigger on the internet, Porsche is going to get its reputation damaged. I was planning on driving the 986 for 3 years and then move on to a 987. If i end up with major damage on this 986, my money will be going to BMW or Audi in the future. :matchup:

Greetz,
Jan

Here is the flange on my 1997. Since my car is so old I have the old style. I stuck a pick under the o-ring so you could see it better. You see a second much smaller o-ring - that goes behind the hole in the middle of the flange where the bolts is.

The seal for the intermediate shaft cannot leak fast enough to damage your engine. It just slowly seeps or drips. But when the bolt breaks off you have a hole in the back of your engine below the engine oil level, and sometimes the oil immediately dumps on the ground. Your engine then sounds like marbles in a can because the intermediate shaft is getting whipped around inside the motor. Then your engine dies and the check engine light comes on.

BTY to replace the bearing the engine is removed and taken apart. You cannot do it from the outside.

Have you checked out a BMW forum? I think there are posts about engine failures with those car too. Particulary the M models.

Right with you, that's my recommendation, too. Get an aftermarket warranty, and drive it hard without reservations. I don't recommend over-revving it, as the ECU keeps track of such events and it may come to haunt you if you have to make a claim for major engine mechanical failures.

You're right, i have also heard about the main bearing going around 50.000 miles on Z3M's.

Jan

With IMS, the problem is more prone on later cars. Porsche re-designed the IMS in 2001 to eliminate a noise/vibration concern. This eliminated one of the bearings resulting in more shaft flex. This is when the IMS issue was born. Reports of IMS failure on earlier model years are very rare.

Not singling you out, but it seems that whenever there's a discussion about failures, especially design failures such as RMS or IMS, someone will inevetably bring up failures in other marques.

What bearing does that have to Porsche having failures? How does that let Porsche off the hook for something they should have addressed long before now (12 years and counting)?

I could care less how many BMW 'M' engines explode... my concern is that my M96 engine does not ... !!

Extemely well said.

Nice job.

:)

I have the same worries, but I console myself this way.

I paid $15,000 for a 2000 2.7 Boxster with 56,000 miles. If it doesn't die, it will probably always be worth at least that much. If the engine dies, I spend $15,000 on a 3.8l conversion and the car will be worth just south of $30,000 (at least that's what I have seen them sell for). Either way, I can't lose money on the car. I do all my own work, so maintenance is cheap. I love this thing. I used to buy a new car every few years and flush money down the toilet. I'd have 10 Boxsters with all that wasted depreciation. Your car is a win/win situation, stop worrying. :cheers:

I didn't know that, so I guess an earlier year could actually be better then, because you only have to worry about RMS which can be detected ahead of time.
Vs. having worry about RMS and IMS (which is hard to detect) with later years.

Do you which year they made the change?

How could you get a 3.8 conversion for $15,000? I would think the engine alone would be well over that price, plus wouldn't you have to do other upgrades as well? I'd love to know if it could be done. I'll have to make the final decision about what to do with mine in a few days probably. Just waiting to hear if it is re-buildable now. It would be nice to be able to make lemonaide out of the lemon I got.

I paid $15,000 for a 2000 2.7 Boxster with 56,000 miles. If it doesn't die, it will probably always be worth at least that much

I am curious. Why do you believe that your Boxster will not depreciate?

:)

I certainly would not say your car is not going to depreciate, however, is your $15k Boxster depreciating less than a new car, whatever it happens to be- absolutely.

In terms of the motor swaps, I don't think you can do a 3.8 for $15k, but you can definitely do a 3.6 for that. I myself am throwing the idea around of a 3.6 swap into my S while my 3.2 is still good and worth something on the parts market. If you do all your own work, and find a 3.6 for between $6k-$9k, the whole thing can be done for under $12k. However, once you do a motor swap, don't expect to get the full value out of your upgrades back when you sell it, unless you find the very rare buyer who wants exactly what you have and is willing to pay a premium for it.

Patrick

I believe that the larger Boxer engines have the IMS issue as well but am not sur of it.

The 3.4 motor from the 1999-2000 certainly did.

The early 3.4L 996 motor had/has cracked sleeve issues like on the 2.5L 986 engine.

The later model 3.4L & 3.6L 996 engine suffer from IMS failures. 3.2L,3.4L & 3.6L engines all seem more prone to IMS failures compared to the 2.7L engine.

When I’ve talked about the possibility of catastrophic engine failure in the Boxster (ie IMS failure), my kid (a 20 year-old budding shade tree mechanic) asks me why I don’t I just get an aftermarket oil pressure gauge. Apparently they will give you clear and immediate notice if your pressure drops. The one he put in his Celica can be set to a pressure below which it will display a visible flashing red light PLUS a “horribly annoying” (as he puts it) audible alarm. Assuming one is paying attention and shuts down the engine quickly on a precipitous oil pressure drop, might this not convert a complete engine failure to a much less costly (and relatively simple-to-fix) IMS failure?

If the intermediate shaft bearing(s) are about to fail or have failed, cannot be detected with an oil pressure gauge.

Your son is talking about normal crankshaft shell bearings and those type of bearings are nothing like the ball roller bearings on the end of the intermediate shaft of the Boxster flat 6 engine.

Your son is smart but this is a flat engine with an intermediate shaft inside the case.

If the car is maintained and kept in good condition, it will probably always be worth 12-15k. I see similar cars selling at dealerships for 18-20k and private party selling for 15-19k.

Look at the 914, it sold new for $3500. A 2.0l car in good condition sells for 12k.

Compared to buying a new car and watching your money go down the drain with every payment, a good condition Boxster is a good deal.

LOL there are Boxsters selling for under 10G. Also, there are 944s selling for 5G. All cars depreciate.

Hello,

I contacted Hartech, an independent UK Porsche specialist who rebuilds watercooled boxer engines. (BTW, they also have a very interesting buyers guide on www.hartech.org).

Since my boxster has the common RMS leak (but not bad up to now), the gearbox has to come off anyway. I asked Hartech if they think some preventive action can be taken concerning the IMS. They suggest to change the IMS bearing and fit a newer spindle design in the proces. They can do the job without removing the engine or the IMS.

My car has only 35.000 miles, but they suggest these IMS bearings suffer from heat (closed bearings), so replacing the bearing is usefull).

Greetz
Jan

of all the boxster motors over the various years - which is the most sturdy?

my dad has a 2000 with the 2.7L engine. his got a new motor due to a RMS leak when it was nearly new..before 10k... now it has 75k miles on it and it runs like a champ.

no oil leaks no nothin'. knock on wood. :)

Wow, I wish they had been for sale when I was buying. I searched the entire east coast for a 2000-2002 2.7 in good condition and couldn't find one for 10k. Where are these located. I'll pick up an extra Boxster for that kind of money. That way if the engine goes, I'll have a spare. :cheers:

I also contacted the Hartech guys and what he had to comment is below... The problem is that these guys are in the UK. The challenge is to find someone in a major US city that understands the issue like Hartech does. For the Chicago-land guys - I once saw a Porsche specialist on Irving Park Road East of Itasca (Roselle or Bensenville?). I'll try and Google it and contact them.

-Steve

----------- Explanation from the Hartech guys----------------------------------------
The main problem in our opinion is that the bearing is shrouded with a seal
so that it starts out with grease in it, but as it runs the grease is
gradually replaced by oil. This oil however does not get in and out very
quickly - so inside the bearing all the minute bits of metal that wear off
stay and form a kind paste while the oil is not circulating - but is
trapped - so gets hot. This combination can prematurely wear out the
bearing.

The bearing can be accessed by anyone removing a gearbox and flywheel and
then the bearing carrier and any garage could manage this.

The outer bearing seal could then be picked out of the way and the whole
things reassembled except to do it you should remove the two chain
tensioners and pull the intermediate shaft sideways to get the carrier back
in place. Now the original shaft on older rmodels has a cut out for a seal
and is very thin and weak - so it is a worry that in pulling it sideways -
it may damage the spindle and lead to a fatigue failure later - so we
replace it with a larger spindle (nothing clever). The bearing could be
replaced at the same time but we think, more often than not, the old one
will be OK with the better cooler oil feed.

This is the Porsche place in Bensenville that I was thinking of:

http://midwesteurosport.com/

Anyone have any experience with these guys?

The place is a dump. Great race shop, but I would not take my personal car there.

Toolpants,

You are obviously very savy mechanically, especially so with porsches, as it seems. I recently had a leaky RMS and IMS seal. My mechanic, who has been working on porsches specifically for over 25 years, says that porsche states that on the 911 you have to change the whole IMS flange, but on the Boxster you just change the seal (he then showed me a new flange w/ seal to point out the seal, which did have multiple ribs). Any particular reason for this? Is the new flange better in some other way? is it worth it going back there and questioning this?

It did seem strange that the 911 would get a new flange while the boxster just get a new seal since the engines are extremely similar.

This was the last reply that I got from the Hartech guy:

There is a later Porsche spindle carrier and spindle that may fit your
engine - a check with your engine number and Porsche parts department may
confirm and this may be a way to upgrade your particular engine within the
Porsche network over there - good luck.

bmusatti,
Sometimes the best looking shops have the worst mechanics! I tend to believe that the guys that race cars know the engine the best. I have had really bad luck with Toyota mechanics lately - they just don't try hard enough to solve the problem and want to fix things that don't need fixing...

-Steve